Author Topic: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.  (Read 10132 times)

Offline Boozeman

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 482
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2008, 10:56:23 AM »
Well, based on Lusche's presentation what lag is, wouldn't this be a viable solution to this problem:

Player A : P-51
Player B : P-47

Right now, it works kinda like this:
Player A's front end sees a collision and then goes "boom". Player B's frontend does not see a collision
and he flies on without any damage. Player A is rather upset because only he dies in clear collision, but the other guy does not. Player B just wonders where the guy on his six has dissapeared - or not.

Now, why not make it work like this: "Lag Check"

Player A's front end sees a collision. Player A's frontend sends a request to player B's fronted, asking if it has also seen a collision at that certain timecode. If B's frontend answers "yes", both recieve the appropriate damage. If it says no, than its clear that it is lag, and neither recieve any damage. In that situation player A would see a collision but he would continue his flight, being aware that the "Lag Check" prevented his death. Player B would not notice anything special at all.

Should not be too hard to implement, since information exchage between frontends happens all the time.
And this should also only increase the data transfer by a very little amount, since these checks only need to be performed at closest distances.


 

     

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2008, 11:09:56 AM »
Well, based on Lusche's presentation what lag is, wouldn't this be a viable solution to this problem:

Player A : P-51
Player B : P-47

Right now, it works kinda like this:
Player A's front end sees a collision and then goes "boom". Player B's frontend does not see a collision
and he flies on without any damage. Player A is rather upset because only he dies in clear collision, but the other guy does not. Player B just wonders where the guy on his six has dissapeared - or not.

Now, why not make it work like this: "Lag Check"

Player A's front end sees a collision. Player A's frontend sends a request to player B's fronted, asking if it has also seen a collision at that certain timecode. If B's frontend answers "yes", both recieve the appropriate damage.

In other words, when there's a collision on both players screen, both take damage. And guess what... that's already happening :)
Not by communication between the two front ends but by the very simple method of "collision on your screen - you take damage"

Quote
If it says no, than its clear that it is lag, and neither receive any damage. In that situation player A would see a collision but he would continue his flight, being aware that the "Lag Check" prevented his death. Player B would not notice anything special at all.


And this is where I think most people are using the word "lag" wrongly.
 "Lag" is what makes planes jump all over the screen, because of lost and/or greatly delayed packets.

The difference you see in these two pictures is NOT the result of lag. It's the result of latency. Every player has it, it's inherent to the internet. Just the amount is varying.
If you know say "a collision damage shouldn't happen if theres not a collision on both screens at the same time" amounts to basically switching the collisions off.

Look at the pictures again. If your proposal would be implemented the P-51 player would take no damage, even though he deliberately did fly into his enemy on his screen.

The result on gameplay would be quite ugly: No big risk anymore to fly guns blazing through you opponent, especially when your enemy is in bombers.


It all comes down to having basically just three options

A- Nobody gets damaged.
 Fly guns blazing through your enemies. No worries about collisions.

b- Both get damaged all the time.
 Explode while your enemy is passing you at 100yd. Ramming your opponent now works all the time. Dodging a ram is next to impossible, 'cause you don't know what's happening on your enemies screen

C - If you get get a collision on your screen, you get damage. Checked on every computer.
A compromise. Not a perfect solution, but the best possible way to cope with the underlying and unchangeable problem of latency (After finally getting a clue about how all this is working, I actually thought "Now this is a clever solution, boy!" :D)
Bad things can and will happen here too but much less frequent than with option B, and with much less detrimental impact on gameplay than option A.



« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 11:22:33 AM by Lusche »
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Squire

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7683
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2008, 11:11:54 AM »
Lets see, we have a bunch of under aged, and/or inebriated, unlicensed pilots, roaring around with no traffic lights, and they don't even signal when they are going to turn.

...I think a few collisions are likely to occur.

Drive safe everybody! :aok
Warloc
Friday Squad Ops CM Team
1841 Squadron Fleet Air Arm
Aces High since Tour 24

Offline FireDragon

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 99
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2008, 11:35:04 AM »
The worse aspect of an otherwise wonderful game. A tempy jams on the brakes in front of me, causes the collision, I go down... he flies off unscathed. Hitech, fix the code. If I take damage, he has to take damage, dammit.                 :mad:


Steve...... Steve ......Steve   If it was me in the temp you would have just shot the crud out of me how come u give this guy a break :devil

Offline Bronk

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9044
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2008, 12:14:37 PM »
DAMN IT !!!!! :furious :furious :furious
Lusche is stealing my fun. ;)
See Rule #4

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2008, 12:19:26 PM »
And this is where I think most people are using the word "lag" wrongly.
 "Lag" is what makes planes jump all over the screen, because of lost and/or greatly delayed packets.

The difference you see in these two pictures is NOT the result of lag. It's the result of latency. Every player has it, it's inherent to the internet.

Sorry Lusche, but here you're wrong. Lost packets are completely different issue, packets can get dropped, no matter latency (lag).

Lag is just term for latency.

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2008, 12:21:59 PM »
Sorry Lusche, but here you're wrong. Lost packets are completely different issue, packets can get dropped, no matter latency (lag).

Lag is just term for latency.

Quote
In computing and especially computer networks, lag (slang) is a symptom where the result of an action appears later than expected. While different kinds of latency are well defined technical terms, lag is the symptom, not the cause.

Latency is the time taken for a packet of data to be sent from onetime for encoding the packet for transmission and transmitting it, the time for that serial data to traverse the network equipment between the nodes, and the time to get the data off the circuit. This is also known as "one-way latency". A minimum bound on latency is determined by the distance between communicating devices and the speed at which the signal propagates in the circuits (typically 70-95% of the speed of light). Actual latency is much higher, due to packet processing in networking equipment, and other traffic.

While strictly every packet experiences lag, the term lag is used to refer to delays noticeable to the user.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 12:24:27 PM by Lusche »
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2008, 12:26:01 PM »
Which says what I said. Lag=latency=delay

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2008, 12:30:13 PM »
Which says what I said. Lag=latency=delay

Ehmm... maybe my english isn't good enough.. but I read from it a differentiation between "ordinary" latency and the phenomenom called "lag" (slang).  ;)

And note the very last sentcence: "While strictly every packet experiences lag, the term lag is used to refer to delays noticeable to the user."

But if you know say "splitting hairs"... I can't deny it :D


« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 12:32:24 PM by Lusche »
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Dichotomy

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12386
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2008, 12:32:29 PM »
tom-A-to
tom-ahhh-to

:D
JG11 - Dicho37Only The Proud Only The Strong AH Players who've passed on :salute

Offline Banshee7

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6595
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2008, 12:36:19 PM »
what you talking bout Dicho..we all know its To-mate-er
Tours 86 - 296

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2008, 12:37:58 PM »
Ehmm... maybe my english isn't good enough.. but I read from it a differentiation between "ordinary" latency and the phenomenom called "lag" (slang).  ;)

And note the very last sentcence: "While strictly every packet experiences lag, the term lag is used to refer to delays noticeable to the user."

But if you know say "splitting hairs"... I can't deny it :D

Well, article is not well written and jumps between the various terms (lag, latency, delay) meaning the same.

But yeah, all it matters in AH is total lag (or latency, or delay).

It also does not matter which term is used, as long as you are consistent in usage.

Offline Vudak

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4819
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2008, 12:40:42 PM »
I hope you all realize, that somewhere out there, Sudz has just killed a kitten  :eek:
Vudak
352nd Fighter Group

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2008, 12:41:06 PM »
 Maybe people should listen more to what the instructors teach about "defensive driving" in driving schools.

 As it is, the only instance when a collision happens in AH, is when it happens on your FE. So, all you have to do, is to take precautions to avoid it from happening in the first place. If one jumps into combat at such close distances with the enemy that collision becomes a threatening possibility, then it is entirely one's own fault when it does actually happen.

 There's a reason why WW2 pilots were instructed to maintain decorum - especially concerning combat distances during dogfights. Collisions were a real threat, and took the life of many people, as it happened both between friendlies and enemies alike. For some reason people conveniently fail to understand that assesing the dangers of collision and its possibility, is as much a "skill" as it is to engage in tight dogfights at such close distances.

 So a collision happened - too bad. No one to blame but oneself - nobody forced anyone to approach in a dangerous HO merge, or, engage in such a dangerous knife fight at close quarters.

  

Offline Dichotomy

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12386
Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2008, 12:44:04 PM »
what you talking bout Dicho..we all know its To-mate-er
:rofl :rofl
Indeed
JG11 - Dicho37Only The Proud Only The Strong AH Players who've passed on :salute