Another What-If Scenario

[toadkill]

OMG they sunk the Enterprise? That's UNPOSSIBLE. =p I call HAX!!!!!!!!!!!


If it were real though i dont think that it could have been a success since the AAF was probably at full capacity since they wouldn't be fighting anywhere else in the pacific. And the Marines and Army Could be Majorly deployed to counter any invasion. Thats not accounting for those Canadians either, Eh?

  looks like a good 'What if"

[Fencer51]

Ok overlooking the "historical" fact that the Japanese did not have the manpower or sealift to do this..

What terrain would you propose to use?

The fact that they "sunk" the Enterprise brings this into Fantasy though. 

[humble]

Ok overlooking the "historical" fact that the Japanese did not have the manpower or sealift to do this..

What terrain would you propose to use?

The fact that they "sunk" the Enterprise brings this into Fantasy though. 

No question that the logistics would have totally overwhelmed them, another issue would be the B-17's. While they were ineffective at midway a much larger force dedicated to both interdication at sea and defense of the landing area would be formidable. Recognizing that its historically impractical it might still be fun.

One interesting aspect would be the interaction of the IJN and IJA/IJAA. Lets assume that a strike was possible, the IJN would be transporting IJA units (not enough IJN marines for this task)...what about the IJAA. It's logical to assume that some Ki-61's might be stored topside on a few carriers (lets say 2 of 6). The Japs would need to attack close to an airfield ( a la henderson )....so you could have a scenario where 2 of the 6 carriers are reserve with 2nd lives for the B5N/D3A drivers and LTV forces IF they successfully capture the field. At the same time if those 2 carriers are sunk no 2nd lives exist...

[Saxman]

I really would have liked the option of B-17s, problem is the B-17G--and the B-24J for that matter--may be too inappropriate for the 1943 timeframe. However if there's no objections, swap the B-17 in place of the Mitchell.

Lol, I THOUGHT that the loss of Enterprise would get some attention.

[Odee]

Not dumping on it of course. I like the idea. I could be mistaken, but I'm sure I've read somewhere that as early as the Battle of Midway A6m3s were replacing A6M2s on Japanese Cv's. Keep pushing it Sax!

What my air Boss says in Spades...   As long as the 49th gets to fly 38's against the Japs, ima be happy camperoo

 

[Fencer51]

Guys there are alot of possibilities with this.  But the limiting factor is the terrain.  Unfortunately the guys who do the terrain have lives and are unable to do the entire globe.  Also some of their work gets "broken" when HTC does updates.

So I ask again, what terrain?  One of the MA terrains?

[Saxman]

I was thinking if I could get a good grayscale topographical map of part of the west coast 512 miles long--including the bay area--at least the base terrain itself could be done fairly quickly using one of the map converter programs.

[Krusty]

Nope. HTC still has to take the files and compile them for the servers. That'll take a number of undetermined months at this rate.

He's asking for an existing terrain, one that works (i.e. not screwed up by the tile updates).



Oh, and p.S. B17s vs A6m2s.... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

[Redlegs]

Guys there are alot of possibilities with this.  But the limiting factor is the terrain.  Unfortunately the guys who do the terrain have lives and are unable to do the entire globe. 

Ahem!

Maybe the Japanese conquer all the Aleutian Islands and look at attacking mainland Alaska?

[ghostdancer]

Saxman there is quite a backlog of terrains being built for Scenarios and FSO right now. Plus, Dux can speak to this specifically, but building a terrain is rather lengthy .. getting the terrain in place is one thing. Skinning it with the tile you want, build the strat system, placing the bases and other objects, etc., etc. takes time. Then it has to be tested, reviewed, etc. to catch bugs. As said it is a lengthy process.

So since this is just a design exercise have at it. But Fencre51 does bring up a good point.

Any FSO starts first with what terrains are available or will be available and tested for stability by X time period. Quite a few of my FSO designs have been shelved waiting on terrains (right now waiting on Tunisia and Luzon came out just a hair to late before so ran Guadalcanal).

After that is to come up with an idea. You are doing a good job with that.

After that is play balance. Both sides have to have a good shot of winning. Your planeset here needs work. A6M5 / A6M2 is at definite disadvantage versus the F4U-1 and P38G even in limited numbers. In Aleutians the frame that had limited P38Gs .. well they romped on the A6M2. Against the P39D and F4F-4 they definitely can hold their own (although have to be flown well .. less room for pilot margin).

So I would modify it for the naval portion that only carrier planes available (sans the F4U-1). Then after or I should say if the Japanese get a land base you could activate the F4U-1, P38G, Ki61 and JU88s.

[ghostdancer]

The Aleutian idea right now would work better with the terrain we have. Plus, U.S. forces were very thin up there. A Japanese attack on California and seizing a land base  would be suicidal. Attacking / bombing facilities sure .. in 1942 they raided into the Indian Ocean and attacked British Facilities on Ceylon and interdicted merchant shipping.

So it would be believable if Hawaii was lost for them to launch raids on California (still suicidal in the long run since it would result in a Pacific First strategy instead of Europe first).

[Sloehand]

Revisions:

First to the situation:

February, 1943. With the collapse of American naval forces at Coral Sea and Midway, the United States no longer had open channels of reinforcing their beleagured forces and allies in the Pacific. The Japanese consolidated their hold on New Guinea and landed in Australia, who fought bitterly but without fresh supplies or reinforcements were unable to hold back the Japanese advance, and by January, 1943 surrendered.

The Americans meanwhile rushed to rebuild their shattered navy. Left only with Saratoga and Wasp, and the newly completed Essex after the loss of their remaining carriers in the two naval battles at Coral Sea and Midway, they decided that in the face of a Japanese presence on Midway Island and six intact fleet carriers the base of the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor was untenable, and Admiral Nimitz ordered the fleet withdrawn to the mainland, while still maintaining the airfields. With their naval and airpower decimated, the US turned to their submarine force to harrass the Japanese.

Fearing a resurgent US Navy and frustrated by the Americans' continued refusal to negotiate, the Japanese leadership takes Admiral Yamamoto's warning at its word: The only way for them to dictate a truce with the Americans would be to do so in Washington itself.

The Japanese plan of battle focused first on destroying the US Pacific Fleet for good by bypassing the airfields on Pearl Harbor, and following the fleet back to its bases along the western coast of the United States, intended to draw the remnants of the Pacific Fleet into battle and seizing the key airfields and installations there to establish a foothold on American soil.

Plane Set

United States

The American plane set would be drawn from a list below. Two bomber and three fighter types will be used in each frame, to be determined by the CM.

F4F-4
F4U-1 (limited numbers)
P-39D
P-38G (limited numbers)
P-40E
SBD-5
TBM-3
B-25C
PT Boat (second life in aircraft)
3 Aircraft Carriers
Cruiser Battle Groups (second life in vehicles)

Japanese

A6M2 (64 minimum requirement)
A6M5
B5N
D3A
Ki-61 (limited numbers IF Japanese successfully capture airfields)
Ju-88 (sub for G4M IF Japanese successfully capture airfields)
LVT (second life in aircraft)
6 Aircraft Carriers
Cruiser Battle Groups (second life in aircraft)

Victory Conditions

The Americans must fend off the Japanese attack by defending their carriers and ground bases. Additionally, they must prevent the Japanese from landing troops and attack the Japanese carriers.

The Japanese primary goal is the annihilation of the remnants of the US Pacific Fleet in surface and aerial action. Additionally, they are to hit American shore installations (bases, factories, etc). LVTs must successfully make landfall. Alternately, the CM may run an actual capture operation, requiring the Axis to actually capture a base. Regardless of how this is handled, if the Japanese successfully take possession of an airfield, they will have access to Ki-61 and "G4M" land-based aircraft in subsequent frames.

Love the overall idea, but IMO there is one really major problem with the revised scenario concerning the pull back of the American carriers to the Mainland.  I seriously doubt that the U.S. Navy would ever abandon such a large amount of American soil and citizenry in such a manner, especially given the land support they would have in the Hawaiian Islands.  More likely the fleet would be used to harass, or split the attention of the Japanese fleet and disrupt any land invasion, if possible. 

Further, there would be little point in pulling carriers back to the Mainland U.S., certainly not for defense -- again land-based forces would be overwhelmingly available for defense -- and not if a land invasion was expected.  Those carriers would be headed for Panama, if saving them from destruction was the plan.

The whole point of carriers is to project air and naval power to distant and remote locations away from your own land-based forces, or to defend distant interests or bases.  Pulling them all the way back to the Mainland, might save them, but more likely would just negate their effectiveness for no return.  As a mobile strike force still at sea, they must still be considered a threat by the Japanese, and if they were to be lost, it would be better it were done inflicting damage on the Japanese fleet that might just delay a Mainland invasion.