Author Topic: T Boone Pickens  (Read 1840 times)

Offline john9001

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2008, 03:43:00 PM »
the rich never have enough money, the more they have the more they want, it becomes a game to them.

Offline Reschke

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2008, 03:51:40 PM »
I put this in another thread, but Pickens leaves out all the problems with wind produced electricity. What, there's no drawbacks?
Surely you don't believe that? Wind doesn't blow all the time. You can't store the electricity the windmills produce. They need to be backed up by conventional electricity plants, and those plants must be always running. There's a lot of farmers in Texas raising windmills now instead of cattle, mostly because of subsidies. Wind power costs about 3 times what conventional power costs. Imagine a 300% increase in your light bill.

Here - read another point of view that differs from Pickens. You can always buy a windmill from him.

oops forgot the link..

http://www.reason.com/news/show/34839.html

Ok someone is going to have to teach me why you can't store electricity from windmills? That just doesn't even see to come close to making sense.
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Offline TracerX

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2008, 03:53:36 PM »
the rich never have enough money, the more they have the more they want, it becomes a game to them.

That is a clumsy poor mans argument.  The most cheritable and caring people I know are rich.  There are stingy rich people who care for only themselves, but to paint them all the same is ignorant.  It is like calling all poor people lazy and stupid.  You can't say such things.  You are not contributing to this argument by making such careless comparisons.

Offline Hangtime

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2008, 04:04:29 PM »
Amazing... what a buncha freakin whiners..... I guess y'all figure that we should wait for Exxon or the Dept Of Energy to solve the energy crisis? Who the hell was it in the McCain campaign that said the american public was a buncha puzzies waiting on a free lunch? The guy was right.... look at you guys!

Yup; the guy is an old 'Big Oil' hound... and better yet, he made his bones by devouring larger oil companies... the guy is a regular wall-street raider. His political tricks are also well known. Since when did it become dis-reputable to eat a poorly managed company or make a damn profit? So he kicked Kerry in the balls... I don't consider that dirty pool... the lyin' salamander tossed his medals over the freakin white house fence... bastard deserved a kick in the balls.

Pickens has also recognized the handwriting on the wall... and sees an opportunity to make some more bucks, this time by creating a new type of energy company business model that can provide a not insignificant bump to power on the grid.

As for the technology... sure; storing electricity from turbines and solar fields is problematic, but there is absolutely no denying that it generates power... a hell of a lot of it, and that none of it will be 'wasted'... and yes, it will not; by itself, replace oil or LNG.... but it WILL make a big assed dent in the use of oil and LNG for power on the grids this system will supply. Add in re-deployment of nuclear, plus conversion of oil to LNG and hybrids for transportation and we'll be heading off down the road towards energy independence.... and we can get started NOW... he's already got proven systems up and running... on his dime. (not yours or mine)

So, aside from the fact that he's making a buck, and the libs hate his politics, anybody got any valid reasons why he should be dismissed as 'irrelevant'?

.... or shall we all just sit here and whine while we wait for the government to solve ourenergy problems?

Hang

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...at home, or abroad.

Offline soda72

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2008, 04:16:24 PM »
.... or shall we all just sit here and whine while we wait for the government to solve ourenergy problems?


It's much easier to sit behind my computer and whine on the BBS...

:)



Offline Getback

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2008, 04:41:49 PM »

look up thin film photovoltaics.

I was referring to the concepts.

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Offline Bones

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2008, 04:45:59 PM »
Personally, I am all for a properly implemented solution to get us off our dependency on resources which may or may not be around much longer.

There are better solutions than what he is proposing.

Thankfully, my home will be off the grid soon and it is only going to cost me about 10 square feet of backyard space.  A much larger version of what I have designed could power a city or two, but that is not going to happen, because I am not rich.

I look at it like this.  I thought of how to do it. Someone else will too, eventually, and maybe that someone will have the money to actually get it implemented on a large scale.

I am sure the brightest minds of our time have all come together and designed this implementation for him. It must be bulletproof. He has the money to say so. It must be brilliant! He has the money to say it is. It must be the answer to our prayers. He has the money to promise it.

Afterall, only people of the highest standards could get rich and only those rich people would want to do something good for mankind.

I am bitter.  I am frustrated.  I am cynical.  I am not a whiner.

Offline Nashwan

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2008, 04:50:13 PM »
Quote
Ok someone is going to have to teach me why you can't store electricity from windmills? That just doesn't even see to come close to making sense.

You can store electricity. It just costs a lot of money.

The downsides with wind power are:

It costs more than conventional power generation sources

It's intermittent. You can't order a wind farm to produce more electricity to meet demand, it produces power according to the strength of the wind. That means you need backup generation ready to come on line immediately in case the wind drops.

That pushes the price up further, because you not only have to pay to build the wind farm, you have to pay for another power station to back up the wind farm as well.

Quote
As for the technology... sure; storing electricity from turbines and solar fields is problematic, but there is absolutely no denying that it generates power... a hell of a lot of it, and that none of it will be 'wasted'

Unless you pay a fortune for storage, much of it will be wasted. You have to have enough other generation capacity to cover 100% of demand for when the wind isn't blowing strongly enough to generate electricity. On the other hand, at times the wind will be just right and you will be generating as much electricity as you have installed capacity.

Wind farms typically average about 25% of their installed capacity. So a 1 megawatt turbine will generate an average of 250 kw/h an hour over a year. Obviously, some of the time it will be generating 1 mw, other times it will be generating 0 mw, and some times it will be generating something in between.

That means if you have wind power making up 25% of your power generation, the wind will contribute between 0 and 100% of electrical demand, on average. Because power stations take time to bring on line, and can't be shut down quickly, there are times when you will be generating far too much power. If you don't have any way of storing it, that excess power will be wasted.

Quote
and yes, it will not; by itself, replace oil or LNG.... but it WILL make a big assed dent in the use of oil and LNG for power on the grids this system will supply.

It would make a difference in natural gas consumption, at the cost of higher electricity bills. But useful oil isn't used for power generation in the US. The little oil that is used is residual oil and petroleum coke, two waste products from the refining process that aren't much use for anything other than power generation.

The only exception are generators, typically running on diesel. But they are used for backup and off grid, so increasing the electrical supply won't make any difference to them. In fact, increasing the price of electricity by using more expensive forms of power generation may result in increased use of generators, because it will narrow the cost gap between generators and mains electricity.

Quote
So, aside from the fact that he's making a buck, and the libs hate his politics, anybody got any valid reasons why he should be dismissed as 'irrelevant'?

Look at the experience of other countries that have spent fortunes subsidising "alternative" power generation. Germany, for example, where the government pays massive subsidies for solar power, but industry is warning unless there is an urgent expansion of coal power stations the country will start suffering blackouts, because  solar might appear green but it doesn't generate enough electricity.

Same in Britain, where the government has spent a decade subsidising wind farms, which still make up less than 1% of our power generation. The government is now doing a U turn and promising a massive expansion of nuclear power, and new coal power stations, despite writing both off 10 years ago as "not green enough". Even then, there's a big doubt whether the new conventional power stations will be built in time to avert blackouts in the middle of the next decade.

The solution to expensive oil isn't to increase the cost of generating electricity.

Offline Modas

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2008, 05:10:47 PM »
Heheheh Hang -

Ya beat me to it.  Does his plan have problems?  Yep, absolutely.  Is it perfect?  Is it going to be implemented over night? Heck no.  But we have to start somewhere.  It took Brazil 30 years to put their ethanol infrastructure in place.  We gotta start somewhere.

The wife and I are very close to pulling the trigger on one of these http://www.skystreamenergy.com/skystream/ in conjuction with PV, which will generate about 50% of our power.  The plan is to make the system scaleable and when we are ready, add on a 2nd skystream and additional PV.  Unfortuantely, systems big enough to generate 100% of what we use start at about 60K and go up from there, which i would imagine is going to be a pretty tough pill to swallow for most average people.

Currently, to collect on any rebates/programs offered by state (typically 25% of system cost up to 35K) & federal goverment (usually about 2k) your site has to be evaluated by a qualified assessor.  While the rebates offered now are a start, they are a drop in the bucket compared to the capitol outlay a person has to commit to get a system big enough to run a house

If the government was really serious about alternative energy, they would create a program to make this stuff affordable for anyone who's site qualifies.  An example program (in my happy little world)

1.  the system would have to be a grid-tied system.  
2.  the system would be no smaller than 20Kw, which is big enough to power 3 average homes
3.  normally, any extra power generated by a grid-tied system is either credited or paid to the owner of the system by the utility company, however, due to the large subsidy (part paid by government and part by local utility) (75-80%), this extra power goes into the grid free for X number of years.  Its kind of like an intrest free loan that is paid back with electricity
4.  The home owner now has free electricity for life and the system is providing power for 2 other homes.

Course this is in my happy little world.  Is it a perfect plan?  Nope.  We gotta start somewhere.

Offline lasersailor184

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2008, 05:23:09 PM »
Ok someone is going to have to teach me why you can't store electricity from windmills? That just doesn't even see to come close to making sense.

The amount of power your house uses can't easily be stored in economical sized batteries. 

I've built a house with Solar Panels, battery reserves and a propane back up.  The batteries could only power the house during normal peak daytime use for about an 1.5 hours to 2.0 hours, assuming the solar panels weren't powering up, and the generator wasn't on.

This small amount of power is stored in a bank of batteries some 20 feet long, 3 feet deep, and 4 feet high.  Each battery is filled to the brim with ACID.  An extremely strong acid.  So strong that most of the workers found themselves "Busy" when we were installing the batteries by lowering them into the storm exit of the basement.  Not to mention the maintenance needed for it.  All of the batteries needed distilled water placed in them to a certain level, at a certain charge.

And the man installing it warned not to touch the positive - negative connections.  I would have "Melted."



And then you take a look at some data centers where constant power is necessary to maintain data integrity.  They have rooms upon rooms of these batteries in levels upon levels of basements.  The duty of these batteries is to power up the building in the chance of a power brownout between main power out, and generator kicking on.  They probably couldn't last more than 30 seconds solo.


Basically, batteries aren't feasible size wise.  Then if you consider that all energy transfers, like from windmill to battery, and from battery to grid lose energy, you try to find some other way to store energy.  It just ain't there.
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Offline Shamus

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2008, 05:30:01 PM »
one of the cats

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Offline BTW

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2008, 05:44:27 PM »
The amount of power your house uses can't easily be stored in economical sized batteries. 

I've built a house with Solar Panels, battery reserves and a propane back up.  The batteries could only power the house during normal peak daytime use for about an 1.5 hours to 2.0 hours, assuming the solar panels weren't powering up, and the generator wasn't on.

This small amount of power is stored in a bank of batteries some 20 feet long, 3 feet deep, and 4 feet high.  Each battery is filled to the brim with ACID.  An extremely strong acid.  So strong that most of the workers found themselves "Busy" when we were installing the batteries by lowering them into the storm exit of the basement.  Not to mention the maintenance needed for it.  All of the batteries needed distilled water placed in them to a certain level, at a certain charge.

And the man installing it warned not to touch the positive - negative connections.  I would have "Melted."



And then you take a look at some data centers where constant power is necessary to maintain data integrity.  They have rooms upon rooms of these batteries in levels upon levels of basements.  The duty of these batteries is to power up the building in the chance of a power brownout between main power out, and generator kicking on.  They probably couldn't last more than 30 seconds solo.


Basically, batteries aren't feasible size wise.  Then if you consider that all energy transfers, like from windmill to battery, and from battery to grid lose energy, you try to find some other way to store energy.  It just ain't there.

And please people, just use a little common sense to decide if you are being sold a bill of goods. All these things that people are bringing up are never even mentioned when Dimocrats want to stall oil production. Alternative energy sources are presented as completely clean with no drawbacks and are being obstructed by big oil. They're pie in the sky. If they were immediately feasible, big oil with all its money and technology would hold the patents for its practical application. The fact is, the time frame in which these source will become feasible is nothing like the Dimocrats paint. And I guarantee, when practical use is developed it will be by an evil oil company and not Al Gore. But if you think its closer to 5 years away than 50 years away, you are just wrong and need to investigate alternative energy from unbiased sources.

I'm not including nuclear in the "alternative" energy group. Obviously that technology exists now.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 05:47:05 PM by BTW »

Offline lasersailor184

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2008, 06:06:21 PM »
A different type of battery.

http://www.consumersenergy.com/welcome.htm?/content/hiermenugrid.aspx?id=31

shamus

Yeah, it's a decent battery.  Until you remember that you waste 60-70% of the energy generated to get the water up there.  Then you waste ANOTHER 60-70% to convert the potential energy to electricity.

So out of all the energy you make with a windmill and convert to this hydroelectric source, you'll get roughly 15-16% back.
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Offline JoeA

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2008, 06:07:15 PM »
If the government was really serious about alternative energy, they would create a program to make this stuff affordable for anyone who's site qualifies.

Now you & Boone can use your own money for whatever you want.  Nothing personal but if it's too expensive for you to invest your own money, it's just too expensive.  End of story.  Taking MY money and giving it to YOU for your private little project doesn't make the project economically justified.  There are already too many government subsidies given to private/special interest groups.  Now if the government wants my money to build nukes or a new electric grid or to develop solar technology or drill ANWR or similar for the good of the entire nation, I'm fine with that.  :salute

Offline Shamus

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Re: T Boone Pickens
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2008, 06:36:06 PM »
Yeah, it's a decent battery.  Until you remember that you waste 60-70% of the energy generated to get the water up there.  Then you waste ANOTHER 60-70% to convert the potential energy to electricity.

So out of all the energy you make with a windmill and convert to this hydroelectric source, you'll get roughly 15-16% back.

When you don't use electricity that is being generated you waste 100% of it no matter what the source. We are talking about how to store excess baseline capacity, this seems to work quite well.

shamus
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