The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar

[Furball]

It is possible to quibble over the details all you want, but the simple basic truth remains unchanged. 

Is it impossible to kill a Spixteen in a P-40B?  No, absolutely not.  As long as the Spixteen pilot is absolutely brainless, it is certainly possible.  If the Spixteen pilot has even an inkling of a clue, he will know that it almost doesn't matter what he does, he will be able to kill the P-40 - and it doesn't matter who is in the P-40.  You could give a good teacher (Widewing, Ghosth.. don't really know any other trainers... but any patient person with a clue) a couple days with a rank noob, teach him how to seize every advantage (including the plane - i.e. an La-7 or Spixteen), put the guy in the DA with Leviathn and the rank noob will win 9 out of 10, as long as he keeps his wits about him.  Levi would be bored out of his whoopee skull, but he would die, every time.  About the best he could hope for would be a MAD HO joust, but even then the Spixteen packs 10x the firepower.. so I wouldn't even recommend that.

Have you gone mad from being out of the game for so long?  Fair enough you can teach someone to use an aircraft to its strengths, but there is no way to teach mastery of SA, timing, anticipation and ACM - where probably 75% of the people in AH fail.  This is why aerobatic pilots do not always make good combat pilots.

[Urchin]

No, I'm not mad lol. 

[q]mastery of SA, timing, anticipation and ACM - where probably 75% of the people in AH fail.  This is why aerobatic pilots do not always make good combat pilots. [/q]

Actually, imo the area where most people 'fail' is hitting the target.  "Mastery of SA" isn't necessary for one to have success as a 'fighter' 'pilot' ... especially not in AH.  That 'art' has been dead for years here.  Others have total 'mastery of SA' .. to the point where they will not even attempt a bore n zoom pass unless they hold every card and their 'opponent' is already fighting more than 2v1. 

Timing, anticipation, and 'ACM' are important, but only if your plane doesn't have every advantage.  You don't need to be a super ace to understand that if you stay in a luftberry long enough, your Spixteen will get around on the opponents 190 - or that if he breaks out of the circle, you can run him down before he gets away (unless your buddies get him first, that is).

If your plane holds all the cards, and you know enough to make use of them... even if you are the worst shot in the world you will eventually wear down the best pilot in a sufficiently crappier plane.

[Vudak]

Is it impossible to kill a Spixteen in a P-40B?  No, absolutely not.  As long as the Spixteen pilot is absolutely brainless, it is certainly possible.  If the Spixteen pilot has even an inkling of a clue, he will know that it almost doesn't matter what he does, he will be able to kill the P-40 - and it doesn't matter who is in the P-40. 

On the other hand, the Spixteen still has to shoot down the P-40B, which will require the Spixteen to get aggressive at some point, which will usually open up the chance of an overshoot.  Speed = death almost as often as it = life.

The problem with P-40Bs, Spit I's, etc. is like you said, you can't count on killing anyone with a snapshot, so it might take a number of overshoots, which of course can be a pretty fine line to walk...  After so many the other guy will eventually ping you no matter who you are.

Still, when you said, "Levi would be bored out of his whoopee skull" is probably the reason most guys don't up very much slower birds.  People are timid enough when you both know you'll eventually catch them.

[Krusty]

All the "it's only the pilot" crap really gets old.

It's NOT. Folks that think it's ONLY the pilot must be a tad egotistical ("I and I alone did this, doesn't matter what I was flying, where we began the fight, that you were already ditched, etc...")

Aircraft have different capabilities, everybody knows this. However skilled the pilot is, the plane can handicap them or it can benefit them. You can put any old 2-weeker in a spit16 and they will get 5 kills before being killed. SA doesn't matter in a furball for them. They don't care if they die. Gunnery isn't an issue, as they can set convergence out to 600 and get 1-ping disable/kills with Hispanos.

I like to call it a multiplier. A spit16 has a very high skill multiplier. You can pull BS moves in this plane that no other plane can (essentially it is a crutch) and folks that ONLY fly the spit are not very capable in other rides. On the other hand you can take a very skilled pilot and put him in a spit16, and it still gives him all the benefits it gives other pilots, only this pilot doesn't NEED them. This pilot can also fly lesser craft equally as well.

Please note the pilot's skill is part of the equation, it is NOT the entire equation.

A pilot in a P-40B is not 1/20th as effective as he is in a spit16. Doesn't matter who he/she fights or how many or in which situation. The P-40B has a low multiplier (in this case it's a decimal, say 0.4 x <pilot_skill>) and can reduce the effect a pilot's skill has on the outcome of a fight.

Splitting hairs by saying "well if the ace is in the p-40b and the dweeb is in the spit16, the spit16 can't aim, has no SA, doesn't understand overshoots, etc etc" -- Splitting hairs won't ignore the fact that thsi P-40B is fubared and even a MORON in teh spit16 can out turn, out climb, out loop, out yoyo, out accelerate, out shoot, out fly the P-40B in every way shape and form based on the inherrent limitations of the aircraft itself.

And if you're still not convinced, put the ace in a C47 and the newbie in a spit16.

Saying "it's the pilot not the plane" may be nice for the real WW2 pilots that coined the phrase (?) and maybe applies in real life more than it ever will in this or any PC game. In Aces High it's just self-congratulating self-applauding egotism.

It's the same mentality as taking credit for bouncing the P-39D in a horde of 6-8 ENY5 planes, after the first 4 crash/auger trying to get him. I had this happen to me. I was the P-39D. The guy that got me took full credit for it. Me? I think none of them earned it. I didn't get an exact count but I believe an F6F and 2x spit16s augered just trying to get a shot on me (and I wasn't manuvering much, trying to run). The ones that crashed put more rounds into me than the guy that got the pilot kill, would have gotten the kill message if any had pulled up a hair sooner.

[Furball]

 

[Vudak]

Man, Krusty, I don't even know where to start with that one

[humble]

In a 1 vs 1 encounter the pilot is by far the most important factor, the second is the pilots gunnery. I almost never lose a 1 on 1 to an "average" pilot due to the plane or ACM...I simply cant capitalize on my shot(s). Now my gunnery is my weakest element but the reduced hitting pwer of the earlier birds makes this a pretty universal part of the equation and explains why the hurricane IIc does so well. If the C202 had 4 x 20mm it would have an eny of 5 

Again all you have to do is bring up the chart that shows the K/D numbers for each plane in a given tour, the spread is suprisingly thin. The statistical variation between the "average" spit driver and average high ENY plane is vairly minor. Now there is no question that a good pilot in a late war plane has the advantage, mostly of disengaging.

[Guppy35]

I'm an average stick at best, and flying the old 38G I'm middle of the pack in terms of performance.

I'll take a 1 v 1 vs a Spit 16 with a new pilot  vs a good stick in a P40/FM2 etc if all I want to do is win.

The new guy in a 16 doesn't know how to use it regardless of how uber you believe it is.  When I die to a 16 its generally in a furball where he comes in from on high.  I love fighting them 1 v 1, and again I know when it's a good stick in it, and when it's not.  The pilot makes a huge difference.  Most people, and this isn't a criticism, fly all kinds of birds and never learn to take them to the edge.  Then there are those that find the edge of the envelope for a particular bird and they use it. 

It's like the same old line about the P51 being nothing but a runner.  Those folks have never run into the 51 guys who can turn that thing low and slow.  Same goes for the Jug, 190 and any number of type cast BnZ birds.

I don't know that anyone has claimed it's only the pilot too.  Would I have a better 'score' if I flew nothing but Spits?  Absolutely, but there's no challenge in it for me.  Nothing against Spits as I love Spits and the history of them, but it's not my bird in here. 

[Widewing]

Why do you guys always go with the worst possible fighter, like the under-modeled P-40B (modeled as an overweight Tomahawk IIB)? How about the Bf 109F-4? 1941 vintage, not uber by late war standards... I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone. How about a 109G-6 vs a 109K-4? How about a P-39Q vs a P-51D? Spit IX vs La-7?

If you guys are so damned sure the plane is more important than the pilot, I'll be in the TA tonight after 9 PM eastern, stop in and test your theory..  Bring clergy.

My regards,

Widewing

[Anaxogoras]

Why do you guys always go with the worst possible fighter, like the under-modeled P-40B (modeled as an overweight Tomahawk IIB)?

Because it proves the point?  

The 109F-4, on the other hand, is one of the best early war fighters.  The other matchups you give are tough but competitive enough so that pilot skill still plays a significant roll.

[BnZ]

Why do you guys always go with the worst possible fighter, like the under-modeled P-40B (modeled as an overweight Tomahawk IIB)? How about the Bf 109F-4? 1941 vintage, not uber by late war standards... I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone. How about a 109G-6 vs a 109K-4? How about a P-39Q vs a P-51D? Spit IX vs La-7?

If you guys are so damned sure the plane is more important than the pilot, I'll be in the TA tonight after 9 PM eastern, stop in and test your theory..  Bring clergy.

My regards,

Widewing

Widewing:

Myself, I am going by a plane's attributes, not its model year. You actually proved the point I was stumbling around by carefully naming matchups where each and every supposedly "obsolete" fighter has a *strong* turning advantage on its late-war counterpart. Like I said, for whatever reason, a turning radius advantage is easier for the average sim player to use in 1v1s than a horsepower advantage.  I mean, 109F? Whether it *should* be able to or not, the thing can actually make a smaller turning circle than a Spit9/8/16. In every case, the chief advantage of the late-war fighters you named is speed and ability to engage and disengage at will, not necessarily superiority in a "duel", which if you look at the path of fighter evolution, apparently had low priority as a design parameter.

Flip side of course is that it will require either serious misjudgement or really spot-on gunnery on an overshoot for the LW fighters here to ever be killed by their EW adversaries, since all of them can and IMO should  run when it becomes apparent things have gone sour.

The 1v1 duels where I think a truly competent stick will beat ANY kind of stick in the lesser plane most of the time are things like Spit8/16 vrs. P-39 or Fw-190A5, La7 vrs. P-51 or Dora at low altitude, etc. Notice that here the running option is closed...I don't consider a plane to be too horribly outclassed by a competitor even if the *only* advantage it enjoys is the ability to engage and disengage and will, since that is the "master" advantage in the chaotic multiple-bandit skies. But if we do take running out of the equation for the sake of argument, there are even more mismatches that pilot skill probably won't bridge against a competent adversary.

And once I get the parts in for my new "uber" AH computer and somehow assemble them correctly, I'll be glad to fly against you WW. You're a good fellow and I could use the training. 

[Gixer]

Why do you guys always go with the worst possible fighter, like the under-modeled P-40B (modeled as an overweight Tomahawk IIB)? How about the Bf 109F-4? 1941 vintage, not uber by late war standards... I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone. How about a 109G-6 vs a 109K-4? How about a P-39Q vs a P-51D? Spit IX vs La-7?

If you guys are so damned sure the plane is more important than the pilot, I'll be in the TA tonight after 9 PM eastern, stop in and test your theory..  Bring clergy.

My regards,

Widewing

Anyone? So yes I'm here waiting, where are you?  And I already killed all the clergy... 


<S>...-Gixer

[Widewing]

Anyone? So yes I'm here waiting, where are you?  And I already killed all the clergy... 


<S>...-Gixer

I was a bit late arriving.. Had to secure the computer as a nasty Thunderstorm came through with 3/4" hail, then very heavy rain and high winds. I have a 12x24 aluminum awning over my patio... What a racket that hail made!


My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

In case it wasn't understood, these fights will employ dueling rules. Take off from same field in opposite directions. Fly out until out of icon range and reverse for merge. 5k cap prior to initial merge. After initial merge, intentionally extending beyond 2.0k while being pursued or running for more than 60 seconds is considered a forfeit. No bugging out, you have to stay and fight. Guns cold on initial merge.


My regards,

Widewing

[Gixer]

With respect Widewing, but in that case when you challenge everyone you should of stated "I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone." but also added "within DA rules only". 

So.. Energy fighting you in vertical, not BnZ, I was trying to keep it close while maintaining an energy advantage without extending beyond 2k just for the sake of fun.. Then after a few passes as I was extending in vertical again through about 1.3k you added DA rules telling me 1.5k not 2k which basically reduces the scenario to a TnB fight, hence I landed. Not because I didn't want to TnB a yak against your F4 but because you added the rules mid way which changed the scenario from an open challenge/gauntlet as per your initial thread comments to a DA fight within limits suiting TnB.. 


Anyway no big deal, just that I took the time out to drop in say hello and hang around for a while which I haven't done in the TA for years.


<S>...-Gixer