Author Topic: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar  (Read 7205 times)

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #150 on: August 08, 2008, 05:34:16 AM »
1.5k not 2k which basically reduces the scenario to a TnB fight

ive been wondering about this for a while, the duelling rules really do force a certain kind of engagement, which will favour some aircraft (and some pilots too i guess.) looser rules would allow pilots and aircraft to use all of the tools in their box.
I'd also argue that guns-cold merging is a completely artificial rule, and one that doesn't help people to learn to deal with a potential HO situation which you will face, alot, in the MA (and indeed IRL.)
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Offline killnu

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #151 on: August 08, 2008, 07:12:10 AM »
it is more the pilot than the plane...but plane does play small role.  vet pilot in spit is going to do well...and be bored.  vet pilot in early war, "hard plane to fly", will still do well, get a few kills, have fun and possibly land.  noob in spit will get a kill or two, may land and probably have fun.  noob in the early war ride will get his arse kicked and probably quit the game...due to frustration. 
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Offline jerkins

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #152 on: August 08, 2008, 07:31:41 AM »
ive been wondering about this for a while, the duelling rules really do force a certain kind of engagement, which will favour some aircraft (and some pilots too i guess.) looser rules would allow pilots and aircraft to use all of the tools in their box.
I'd also argue that guns-cold merging is a completely artificial rule, and one that doesn't help people to learn to deal with a potential HO situation which you will face, alot, in the MA (and indeed IRL.)

I usually duel with no ho's period, and it is rare that I am not able to avoid the ho everyday playing. 

With respect Widewing, but in that case when you challenge everyone you should of stated "I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone." but also added "within DA rules only". 

So.. Energy fighting you in vertical, not BnZ, I was trying to keep it close while maintaining an energy advantage without extending beyond 2k just for the sake of fun.. Then after a few passes as I was extending in vertical again through about 1.3k you added DA rules telling me 1.5k not 2k which basically reduces the scenario to a TnB fight, hence I landed. Not because I didn't want to TnB a yak against your F4 but because you added the rules mid way which changed the scenario from an open challenge/gauntlet as per your initial thread comments to a DA fight within limits suiting TnB.. 


Anyway no big deal, just that I took the time out to drop in say hello and hang around for a while which I haven't done in the TA for years.


<S>...-Gixer



The 1.5k rule does not reduce the fight to tnb only.  Are you saying to need more than 1500 yards (4500feet) of alt on someone in order to kill them?  It is still very possible to E fight with this limitation.  As a matter of fact, i would like to see you extend higher than this if you really meet co alt, co E.  Dueling rules are going to do one thing, show who the true winner is.  Each pilot had the some E potential before the fight, and the one that utilizes these possibilities best will win the fight.  This is by conserving E, or shedding some E to gain angles for the kill. 

So what you really intended to say gixer was that if you have all the advantages, in an 'ubber' plane, you can kill anything?
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Offline humble

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #153 on: August 08, 2008, 08:25:03 AM »
2k is absolutely plenty of room for an E fight...

The real issue here is pretty simple. Yes a fast late war plane can completely control a fight vs an early war plane (which is normally slower). So it is certainly possible to buzz bomb the other guy till you run out of ammo and RTB. The yak is probably one of if not the most optimized planes for AH outside of its ammo load. It's got great vis, is optimized for performance at 16k and has a formidable power band that doesnt depend on WEP. While its not an exceptional turner its got tremendous overall capability.

So yes an average or below average pilot in a late war bird can effectively B&Z a better stick in a early war plane with some segree of success. However, 95% of the time the seasoned vet will eventually lure the other guy in an MA envirornment.

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Offline SlapShot

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #154 on: August 08, 2008, 08:34:16 AM »
It could very well be that there are crack pilots who can use the 262 well....I've seen TrueKill stall-fight it effectively.  But otherwise, so long as people know you're flying the thing nearby, it's just a matter of luck that it gets kills against fighters.  Every 262 fighter kill I've ever seen (except for TK's!) has been against someone who didn't know the jet was coming after him.

The guns are lethal, of course, but the trajectory is lousy for any fighter, and dreadful for one as fast as the 262.  I'm sure it's a great bomber killer, but otherwise it's a boring plane to fly and a boring plane to fly against.

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Offline killnu

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #155 on: August 08, 2008, 08:35:43 AM »
Quote
95% of the time the seasoned vet will eventually lure the other guy in an MA envirornment.

not exactly sure what you meant by "MA enviroment"...but in the above scenario, getting BnZ by "superior" plane, I am just patient and wait for the guy to get frustrated with missing and then pushing a bad angle...then get on top of him and kill him.  That happens most of the time...the rest of the time they run out of ammo/fuel and run home.
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Offline killnu

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #156 on: August 08, 2008, 08:37:59 AM »
Quote
You have got to see Kappa fly the 262 ... pure magic.
I 2nd that.  I have had tons of fun flying jets with kappa and fester...they are both amazing in those things.  taught me quite a bit.  :aok
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Offline Gixer

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #157 on: August 08, 2008, 08:39:16 AM »
Jerkins you seem to of missed the point of my post completely. Im not going to repeat myself or go over the details of the fight and how it unfolded for your sake.

As for needing a ubber ride check my stats i only fly yaks and usually only the Yak T at that, and do kill anything on a regular basis more then they can kill me. So you might like to save the weak troll attempt for someone else.    

<S>...-Gixer

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #158 on: August 08, 2008, 08:39:48 AM »
I usually duel with no ho's period, and it is rare that I am not able to avoid the ho everyday playing. 

The 1.5k rule does not reduce the fight to tnb only.  Are you saying to need more than 1500 yards (4500feet) of alt on someone in order to kill them?  It is still very possible to E fight with this limitation.  As a matter of fact, i would like to see you extend higher than this if you really meet co alt, co E.  Dueling rules are going to do one thing, show who the true winner is.  Each pilot had the some E potential before the fight, and the one that utilizes these possibilities best will win the fight.  This is by conserving E, or shedding some E to gain angles for the kill. 

So what you really intended to say gixer was that if you have all the advantages, in an 'ubber' plane, you can kill anything?

Limiting how much someone can climb has to be the most artificial rule ever, tailor made to help aircraft that climb poorly or which excel at flat turns.  Extending and climbing are precisely the way that a Yak can best utilize its energy against a tighter turning aircraft.  Gixer's knowledge of this fact is why he is successful in it.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 08:43:40 AM by Anaxogoras »
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Offline killnu

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #159 on: August 08, 2008, 08:42:06 AM »
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tailor made to help aircraft that climb poorly or which excel at flat turns.

hmm..most duels that I have been in have consisted of the same exact planes with same fuel and ammo loadouts...so that kind of negates that above statement.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #160 on: August 08, 2008, 08:44:23 AM »
hmm..most duels that I have been in have consisted of the same exact planes with same fuel and ammo loadouts...so that kind of negates that above statement.

Ummmmm :huh, yeah, we're not assuming that both aircraft are the same type.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #161 on: August 08, 2008, 08:45:43 AM »
With respect Widewing, but in that case when you challenge everyone you should of stated "I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone." but also added "within DA rules only". 

So.. Energy fighting you in vertical, not BnZ, I was trying to keep it close while maintaining an energy advantage without extending beyond 2k just for the sake of fun.. Then after a few passes as I was extending in vertical again through about 1.3k you added DA rules telling me 1.5k not 2k which basically reduces the scenario to a TnB fight, hence I landed. Not because I didn't want to TnB a yak against your F4 but because you added the rules mid way which changed the scenario from an open challenge/gauntlet as per your initial thread comments to a DA fight within limits suiting TnB.. 


Anyway no big deal, just that I took the time out to drop in say hello and hang around for a while which I haven't done in the TA for years.


<S>...-Gixer


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Offline Dead Man Flying

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #162 on: August 08, 2008, 09:57:49 AM »
Hey, I know I'm rusty and all... but 9 out of 10?

 :cry

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Offline Widewing

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #163 on: August 08, 2008, 10:11:06 AM »
With respect Widewing, but in that case when you challenge everyone you should of stated "I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone." but also added "within DA rules only". 

So.. Energy fighting you in vertical, not BnZ, I was trying to keep it close while maintaining an energy advantage without extending beyond 2k just for the sake of fun.. Then after a few passes as I was extending in vertical again through about 1.3k you added DA rules telling me 1.5k not 2k which basically reduces the scenario to a TnB fight, hence I landed. Not because I didn't want to TnB a yak against your F4 but because you added the rules mid way which changed the scenario from an open challenge/gauntlet as per your initial thread comments to a DA fight within limits suiting TnB.. 


Anyway no big deal, just that I took the time out to drop in say hello and hang around for a while which I haven't done in the TA for years.


<S>...-Gixer



I mentioned dueling rules in text earlier and assumed you understood. I guess I was incorrect. As I said at the time, these fights are not about bragging rights or ego, they are about trying some new things and having fun.

As it was, you flew out about 10 to 15 miles while I circled the field at 200 mph waiting and answering other player's questions in text. When you finally came back, I eventually spotted you on my six 4k distant closing at high speed. I realized you were attacking, so I did an off angle split-S to build a little E for a merge. We passed, I reversed and you extended out more than 4k. I even elected to keep a full drop tank because you had loaded excessive fuel. After the initial merge, I would meet you nose on nose, reverse and chase you while you extended out, sometimes in excess of 2k. On one HO merge, I tried to angle off a bit, but you face-shot me. On the next merge, I returned the favor. After a while, it got rather boring, so I started following you up to see if I could milk my E enough to catch you. I finally had pitched off the drop tank when it was obvious that you weren't going to maneuver with me. After a while, I was able equalize E states anyway, on your six 500 yards behind. I then stated that I was breaking left and offered you a clean re-merge. However, you elected to land anyway.

Had I realized what kind of a fight you had in mind, I would have climbed out on an opposite heading and met you Co-Alt with some E built up. I can play the high speed game as well as anyone. However, I suspect that the result would have been merge/extend/merge/extend until one of us ran out of gas.

I would be willing to trade planes with you and duel, perfectly content to maneuver fight in a Yak against a 109F. The Yak-9U can give the 109F a very hard fight, even within dueling rules.

I started film after the second merge. The film is exactly 10 minutes long. I'll send you a link to it via PM if you want a copy.

Next time, lets concentrate on mixing it up more as it'll be more fun and you may find that the Yak can fight effectively close-in, even against a 109F. As I said, we can trade planes, or I'll switch up to something else, like a P-39. Spend a few hours of furballing with the Yak and you may find that it's fun, and not as boring as the high speed, low risk style. It's the TA, you can go for broke and risk getting whacked, as there's no penalty.

Well, I do appreciate you coming by and hope you come again, and take the risk of a few knife fights. It'll be fun, regardless of outcome.

My regards,

Widewing


(edited for typo)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 10:18:15 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline jerkins

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #164 on: August 08, 2008, 10:57:12 AM »
Limiting how much someone can climb has to be the most artificial rule ever, tailor made to help aircraft that climb poorly or which excel at flat turns.  Extending and climbing are precisely the way that a Yak can best utilize its energy against a tighter turning aircraft.  Gixer's knowledge of this fact is why he is successful in it.

You really think that you could get an altidtude advantage of 4500 feet when meeting head on at same alt.  IMO this is not at all likely, even k4 vs d3a.
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