Author Topic: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar  (Read 7249 times)

Offline BnZ

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #165 on: August 08, 2008, 03:45:36 PM »
There is, IMHO, a big difference between a plane running beyond 1.5, 2, 2.5K, whatever the specification is, with the opposition on his tail, and vertical situations.

If you make a pass on a guy carrying some speed, he does a hard flat break, you go vert, he simultaneosly decides to dive for some airspeed, the distance can EASILY open up to even 2.5K before zoomer can observe what is happening and roll back in on him. This is neither player's fault, and cannot be considered a foul.

And I'm sorry, I think 1.5K IS abit close sometimes for setting up the next pass in some situations. One of the cardinal rule of boom and zoom/E fighting tactics IMO is don't make your pass in a steep dive upon the opponent, unless he is a roped dope. If you do, he pulls up and zooms, after you take the shot he is on your high six and you've sacrificed advantage. It seems to me in certain situations and aircraft, you simply wouldn't have enough room to dive back down, develop some decent smash, AND round out before you come into gun range (so you would be level-to-climbing at the time of the shot), if you were limited to never going beyond 1.5K absolute distance from the foe.

Offline BnZ

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #166 on: August 08, 2008, 03:53:08 PM »
You really think that you could get an altidtude advantage of 4500 feet when meeting head on at same alt.  IMO this is not at all likely, even k4 vs d3a.

Um, my AHII computer isin't working right now, so I can't test things. Up an F4U-4, run it on WEP until you reach its max level cruising speed, then gently point her straight up and hold there until you have to level out to avoid the stall. Then do the same thing with a Hurricane IIC. Post the results if you don't mind, and we'll thank you sir.

I'm will to bet that the F4U-4 can pick up at least an extra ~4,000 feet over the Hurri, if the zoom is milked skillfully enough.

Offline Gixer

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #167 on: August 08, 2008, 05:47:19 PM »

Had I realized what kind of a fight you had in mind, I would have climbed out on an opposite heading and met you Co-Alt with some E built up. I can play the high speed game as well as anyone. However, I suspect that the result would have been merge/extend/merge/extend until one of us ran out of gas.

My regards,

Widewing

That's why I asked in the tower before hand loaded up 100% gas and took off from a base outside from where you were as you had already taken off, I was under the assumption that it was an open fight as per your original thread and challenge. I then didn't expect you to take off from the base I had already left from minutes earlier and for the fight to be reduced to a DA scenario (with even reduced extension rules from normal) after the fight had been going for a few minutes with shots and passes made. And it would never of been a "merge/extend/merge/extend until one of us ran out of gas." that's ridiculous given we are both experienced that doesn't even happen to me in the MA when I purposely meet up with experienced sticks whether they are in a C-Hog or IIC.

As for the recollection as to how the fight unfolded I decided to leave that out of this thread completely (and continue to do so) as a matter of respect. So why unnessarily start your own version of how the fight unfolded and brag about how you got bored and then able to equal E? Especially when you state that TA isn't about bragging rights?

I respect you from your contribution to this community and time with the TA, I expect the same in return given I'm no newbie and not inexperienced especially when it comes to Yaks. Main reason I fly the Yak T is to give others something different from the normal dweeb rides to fight against while giving myself a challenge at the same time. I could just as easily join the majority and fly a low eny/easy mode fighter.

If anyone wants to challenge me they can fly what ever they want. But do me a favour, leave the DA rules at the door and meet me in the MA. Given both experienced sticks a list of rules aren't needed for a good competitive fight no matter the aircraft mix,alt or what ever. Save it for the trainees.


<S>...-Gixer



« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 05:59:59 PM by Gixer »

Offline Widewing

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #168 on: August 09, 2008, 12:42:19 AM »
That's why I asked in the tower before hand loaded up 100% gas and took off from a base outside from where you were as you had already taken off, I was under the assumption that it was an open fight as per your original thread and challenge. I then didn't expect you to take off from the base I had already left from minutes earlier and for the fight to be reduced to a DA scenario (with even reduced extension rules from normal) after the fight had been going for a few minutes with shots and passes made. And it would never of been a "merge/extend/merge/extend until one of us ran out of gas." that's ridiculous given we are both experienced that doesn't even happen to me in the MA when I purposely meet up with experienced sticks whether they are in a C-Hog or IIC.

As for the recollection as to how the fight unfolded I decided to leave that out of this thread completely (and continue to do so) as a matter of respect. So why unnessarily start your own version of how the fight unfolded and brag about how you got bored and then able to equal E? Especially when you state that TA isn't about bragging rights?

I respect you from your contribution to this community and time with the TA, I expect the same in return given I'm no newbie and not inexperienced especially when it comes to Yaks. Main reason I fly the Yak T is to give others something different from the normal dweeb rides to fight against while giving myself a challenge at the same time. I could just as easily join the majority and fly a low eny/easy mode fighter.

If anyone wants to challenge me they can fly what ever they want. But do me a favour, leave the DA rules at the door and meet me in the MA. Given both experienced sticks a list of rules aren't needed for a good competitive fight no matter the aircraft mix,alt or what ever. Save it for the trainees.


<S>...-Gixer

You asked me if field 127 was okay. I said that it was and immediately went there. You had already taken off heading West, I took off heading East. You disappeared, I waited and circled... 

Gixer, as long as I've been playing Aces High, a challenge is a duel, duels have rules... Clearly, there was a misunderstanding at the outset the other night. However, you didn't hesitate to take advantage of it. Which is why there are dueling rules. The purpose of the rules is to eliminate the variables (that many pilots would fudge to get an advantage). Co-E, Co-Alt merge isolates the planes and pilots and results in a fight being fair. I guess you don't like an even-up meeting. Why not? You're afraid to fight the 109F under those circumstances because it out-turns the Yak (easily). So what, who says you have to stall-fight? Last night you said that you were E-fighting. Unfortunately, it was standard BnZ, having begun with a huge E advantage. If you really knew how to E-fight the Yak, you wouldn't be afraid to duel in it. I mean, on the first merge, where you had at least 100 mph on me, you extended halfway to Auckland before you turned back. A quick double immelman would have placed you directly over me with every advantage. Instead, you ran out nearly 3 miles. And yes, it was boring. Like watching paint dry. I kept the drop tank, hoping it would encourage you to saddle-up and fight. No one is bragging here, merely stating fact.

There's much more to air combat than cherry picking with a 37mm cannon. Dueling will teach you how to fight effectively under any circumstances. The one thing you won't like is the fact that you're going to shot to pieces as part of the learning curve. For some reason, I suspect that you can't let that happen, thus you won't duel. However, getting beat up is part of the learning process. You have to be willing to be vulnerable and get hammered for a while. There's no other way to learn. Do you think the better sticks just popped up out of the blue? They all paid their dues while learning. Stop by the TA again, leave your ego in the tower and have some fun.

My regards,

Widewing

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Gixer

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #169 on: August 09, 2008, 03:40:19 AM »
There's much more to air combat than cherry picking with a 37mm cannon. Dueling will teach you how to fight effectively under any circumstances. The one thing you won't like is the fact that you're going to shot to pieces as part of the learning curve. For some reason, I suspect that you can't let that happen, thus you won't duel. However, getting beat up is part of the learning process. You have to be willing to be vulnerable and get hammered for a while. There's no other way to learn. Do you think the better sticks just popped up out of the blue? They all paid their dues while learning. Stop by the TA again, leave your ego in the tower and have some fun.

My regards,

Widewing

You assume far to much Widewing on how I fly and fight in the Yak-9T if you think I don't duel and just use the 37mm to cherry pick, that's the most ridiculous and arrogant claim I've had anyone make towards me yet.  Maybe that's my fault for never posting film, or hanging out in the training thread, I don't because I'm not interested in ego trips. Though a few have asked me to send films directly to them which I often do. 

Problem is I rarely fly during your peek times due to the time difference, if you flew on a regular basis off peek you'd have a different opinion of me through your own experience and from others rather then via assumptions.

No I won't be visiting your sandpit in the TA or DA again, I don't need a staged arena to setup up 1v1 fights. If you'd like to meet PM if you see me in the MA and fly what you want I'll be in the Yak.


<S>...-Gixer
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 03:46:06 AM by Gixer »

Offline angelsandair

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #170 on: August 09, 2008, 03:46:13 AM »
You assume far to much Widewing on how I fly and fight in the Yak-9T if you think I just use the 37mm to cherry pick, that's the most ridiculous and arrogant claim I've had anyone make towards me yet.  Maybe that's my fault for never posting film, or hanging out in the training thread, I don't because I'm not interested in ego trips. Though a few have asked me to send films directly to them which I often do. 

Problem is I rarely fly during your peek times due to the time difference, if you flew on a regular basis off peek you'd have a different opinion of me through your own experience and from others rather then via assumptions.

No I won't be visiting your sandpit in the TA or DA again, I don't need a staged arena to setup up 1v1 fights. If you'd like to meet PM if you see me in the MA and fly what you want I'll be in the Yak.


<S>...-Gixer



Careful Gixer, dont get into this with WW, he'd whup your butt. From the sounds of it, he pointed out the obvious that you could not do. Learning your ACM in a fight where you're equal or where you have LESS of an advantage is the best way to learn. It seems you dont wanna try to fight unless you actually HAVE an advantage. In a yak, you should be takin on spitties higher than you, taking on 109F's co-alt so you could LEARN how to fight a plane more maneuverable than you.
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Offline Gixer

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #171 on: August 09, 2008, 03:49:49 AM »
And your making your assumptions from one side of the story.


<S>...-Gixer

Offline angelsandair

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #172 on: August 09, 2008, 03:53:35 AM »
And your making your assumptions from one side of the story.


<S>...-Gixer


Yes, because WideWing has been 100% true to his word and backed up everything he has ever said with facts and data. He's an all around damn good pilot. He's the only guy I've seen land 8+ kills in a P-39D.

Enough on my part.
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Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline Widewing

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #173 on: August 09, 2008, 10:19:57 AM »
You assume far to much Widewing on how I fly and fight in the Yak-9T if you think I don't duel and just use the 37mm to cherry pick, that's the most ridiculous and arrogant claim I've had anyone make towards me yet.  Maybe that's my fault for never posting film, or hanging out in the training thread, I don't because I'm not interested in ego trips. Though a few have asked me to send films directly to them which I often do. 

Problem is I rarely fly during your peek times due to the time difference, if you flew on a regular basis off peek you'd have a different opinion of me through your own experience and from others rather then via assumptions.

No I won't be visiting your sandpit in the TA or DA again, I don't need a staged arena to setup up 1v1 fights. If you'd like to meet PM if you see me in the MA and fly what you want I'll be in the Yak.


<S>...-Gixer


You may be right, I may be assuming too much. However, I can see no other explanation of your terror for dueling under controlled circumstances, where all things are close to equal at the start. The conclusion people will draw is that you have no confidence that you could win and therefore, refuse to partake. The concept I'm trying to present is that winning should not be a goal. Learning and having fun should be the sole purpose. When I was trying to master ACM, I fought duels with pilots who were vastly better than I was. They kicked my butt. However, I learned and had fun doing it. I still duel with the best in the game and having fun is still the primary goal. I win some and lose some, but they're all fun.

I'm just trying to get you to loosen up, forget about protecting a self-image, have fun and learn a few things about what you can do and not do. My goodness, I take away something positive from every fight. Win, lose or draw, you can always learn something from a good duel.

When I work with someone I haven't seen fly before, I watch them carefully for errors, be they tactics, SA, plane handling and especially ACM. If I see something, I tell them and offer advice. My goal isn't to beat them. My goal is to help get to a level where they can beat me. If I duel with someone who proves to be better than me, I study the film and figure out where they gained an advantage so that next time, I'll have an effective counter. I won't sulk about getting beat, because it's an opportunity to improve. There's no stigma associated with getting beat in a fair fight. To be successful, one must have the self-confidence to be willing to fail.

I'm going to speak to everyone who is reading this thread....

I often fly with guys who come to the TA to improve their ACM skills. Many of these guys have a good understanding of ACM and need little coaching in that regard. Where they fall short is the lack of ability to fly their plane to the edge of the envelop and remain there. They will never learn that in the MA. Never. They learn that by dueling. Once they learn how to fly to the absolute limit of the aircraft, being able to exploit all of its strengths and avoid it's weaknesses, they see a corresponding improvement in their MA flying. One of these guys flies the Hellcat as his main ride. He's spent many hours practicing via duels. He no longer dreads Spitfires, Nikis and La-7s. He now knows that unless the pilots of these fighters are exceptional, he can beat them at their own game. In point of fact, he usually does.

There have been many exceptional pilots who came through the TA. They have been well schooled by trainers and volunteer pilots like 2bighorn and Batfink to name only a couple. These young pilots, fellows like TonyJoey and 0100, are solid representatives of the future of Aces High. They are already good enough to beat 99% of those flying AH2. They learned how to duel early in their AH2 experience. They went to the TA and DA and battled with the best they could find. They took their licks, but learned and steadily improved. When I duel with these guys, I can't give them an inch, or they'll take advantage of it and make me pay.

There will always be differences in people and the level to which they can realistically rise. Some are naturally talented, while others struggle to achieve a high level. Regardless of which category you find yourself in, you will always improve you skills by taking the time to duel. Dueling helps teach you basic ACM. It teaches you plane control. It teaches you the skills you need to be successful fighting in airplanes. From there, you learn SA skills and fighting as a team. We hold clinics in the TA for building those skills. We will be holding one on August 17th. To be a well rounded pilot, dueling is an essential course. Don't be afraid of it. If Aces High had a formal curriculum, dueling would be a prerequisite.

My regards,

Widewing

(editing for spelling)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 10:23:21 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline SkyRock

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #174 on: August 09, 2008, 11:12:42 AM »
SkyRock<-----owns Gixer, my spitmkI against his yak9t! :t

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline Gixer

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #175 on: August 09, 2008, 11:26:12 AM »
SkyRock<-----owns Gixer, my spitmkI against his yak9t! :t

:lol

You'll have to cast your bait far better then that.   


<S>...-Gixer

Offline Vudak

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #176 on: August 09, 2008, 04:28:01 PM »
I'd like to see a quasi-MA experience between WW and Gixer...  Only rule being coalt until icon on initial merge.  Throw out every other dueling rule there is.  If you want to extend 6k, fine.  If you want to HO on any merge, even the first, fine.  Anything you can do in the MA, you can do in this fight, but you both stay coalt until icon range on the first merge, to replicate a coalt MA engagement.

BUT...  The thing is...  Gixer has to shoot WW down.  He cannot run him out of gas.  If WW runs out of gas, Gixer loses.  If Gixer runs out of gas, Gixer loses.  If either pilot runs out of gas due to a leak on an otherwise perfectly fine aircraft, it's a draw.  The late-war ride must destroy the early-war bird.

Do this for a best of three, and then switch aircraft.  See if there are differences.

I'm not familiar with the disparity between fuel loads of an 109F and a Yak, but pick something that gives roughly the same amount of time.

I think this would be a fair way to do this.  Gixer doesn't feel like he's being put into a situation he has little experience with, and yet he still has to destroy WW, thus compelling him to go onto the offensive sooner or later.
Vudak
352nd Fighter Group

Offline Widewing

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #177 on: August 09, 2008, 04:56:27 PM »

I think this would be a fair way to do this.  Gixer doesn't feel like he's being put into a situation he has little experience with, and yet he still has to destroy WW, thus compelling him to go onto the offensive sooner or later.

The problem is, I'd fall asleep....


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Gixer

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #178 on: August 09, 2008, 04:57:29 PM »
I can see no other explanation of your terror for dueling under controlled circumstances, where all things are close to equal at the start. The conclusion people will draw is that you have no confidence that you could win and therefore, refuse to partake.

Ok. this is about your fourth or fifth reply in a row where for some reason you've found it necessary to try and ridicule me in one way or another with your assumptions or version of events.. One thing is evident you are far better at testing cartoon planes then psycho analysing  others.

If I was too timid to duel I wouldnt be flying a high eny fighter like the Yak T in the LW arena.  At least give some credit for having the dedication to stick with one ride each tour and one that isn't some uber low tier or perk ride. You might think you can teach me a thing or two. But since I'm no newbie, at least give me some respect and ask around before slagging me off, just as you might want to check before assuming I only use the 37mm to cherry pick.

You could probably start off with Dastrdly for his opinion as he has duelled against me 1v1 in the MA more then anyone over the past few months.. Then maybe Grim and  almost anyone that frequently spends time in LWA off peek. To state that I'm too timid or worried about my ego or scared of losing a 1v1 fight in the staged/porked environment of the TA or DA of all places is laughable to the extreme. And probably the second or third most pathetic statement I've ever heard.

I'm out of this discussion. It's would rate as one of the most disappointing, not for your challange itself and outcome but for your remarks. Especially as I haven't responded in any disrespectful manor towards you in this thread or any other in the past, or argued my point as to how the fight played out.. If you wish to carry on the discussion or duel PM me. I might be able to work around the time difference to meet up before I go on leave in September.

Otherwise see you in the MA sometime and don't forget the clergy.


<S>...-Gixer
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 05:09:11 PM by Gixer »

Offline Vudak

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Re: The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar
« Reply #179 on: August 09, 2008, 05:15:39 PM »
The problem is, I'd fall asleep....


My regards,

Widewing

Well, you would have to raid your local preschool for some ritalin, but that's a small price to pay in the name of science :)
Vudak
352nd Fighter Group