Run your car on water??????

[CAP1]

that assumes everything else is running at a very high efficiency. The idea seems to be that engines run at low enough of an efficiency that the improvements  caused by  burning the HHO is greater than the decrease in efficiency caused by a minor load on the alternator and added weight of the water.  While there is bound to be a net energy loss, it may manifest in a part of the picture they are not concerned with...as long as they get that few extra miles out of a gallon of gasoline.

i think the average internal combustion engine only runs at 15-25% effeciency.

the alternator costs a MAX. of 5 horsepower to run. your a/c compressor costs almost 12 horsepower.

the weight of the water is a non issue since you're placing less than a gallon onboard. water only weighs about 8 pounds per gallon.

hey.....if i increase my dakota by only 20%, it'ss actually get 20mpg average., and 25mpg at 75mph. to me that would be worth it.

[Bronk]

there will still be enough gasoline injected. it wil be supplemented by the hho. so, with this supplement, less gasoline, still same power. as long as the engine is running, the alternator will keep the battery charged, and run the electrical system. the electricity is what creats the hho gas.

SO you don't think calling for more juice from the alt will drop mpg? Nothing is free, will the HHO offset the increased hp demand the alt needs to produce hho?

[CAP1]

The excess electricity, okay...
But if the alternator is being squeezed for every available amper, isn't it heavier anyway, hence more fuel consumption?

the alternator cycles. it only "turns on" when needed. when it is running fully loaded it only costs 5 horsepower. that is negligant. 5 horsepower won't have a serious impact on fuel mileage..at least not enough to offset the advantages

[CAP1]

What makes the alternator spin? What gives it it's energy?

the engine spins it.


but......the battery gives it its energy. you can spin an alternator all day long as fast as you like, and without applying 12V to it, it will do absolutley nothing.

the gasoline being removed from the injection process is being replaced with another combustable substance. that's how this can work

[CAP1]

The connection with the engine swingwheel via the fan belt...typically...
Always thought the Alternator took less muscle when not or hardly charging at all (cutout), after all, just the ignition and even the front lights only take a part of the amps. You'd typically have like say 90 amps at 14v or so, giving you a close to 1KW which is only 1.36 hp.
So is it or is it not heavier when running idle?

it takes 0  horsepower to run when it's not charging. it almost never runs at full capacity.

i think the average cars headlights use about 6 to 12 amps. the a/c compressor uses only about 6-10 i think, the heater blower maxes out at 20, wipers only about 5 or so. the ignition system, and control systems only about another 20.

that's about 67 amps with everything running max.

 this isn't perfect.
 this isn't intended to replace gasoline for a power source.
 this is intended to supplement gasoline and help it.


 

[CAP1]

Funding.

you're on a rolll today!!

[Hornet33]

The alternator is ALWAYS generating electricity. Depending on how much of a load is placed on it and the total output the alternator is capable of generating will cause a small load to be placed on the engine. For most vehicles an extra 20 amps of current draw is miniscule when taken in whole with all the other items in the vehicle. A booster will draw less current than an after market stereo and amplifier. How much of a mpg loss do you see when you install one of those? Not much, and that draws more current. So by adding a booster whose current draw is negligable to the overall efficiency of the engine and alternator, and adding the gas produced by the booster to the combustion process in the engine itself, there is a net gain in engine effiency.

The folks saying you can't get out more than you put in have blinders on and are ONLY looking at the electrical aspect of the ENTIRE system, and not the engine plant as a whole. Also the load on the alternator is NOT proportional to the amout of fuel burned due to the much higher efficiency of the alternator compared to the engine itself and the 2 different processes used by the two different motors to produce their respective outputs.

[Nashwan]

If the alternator is putting out 20 amps, that's 240 watts. The alternator is say 80% efficient, so it requires 300 watts from the engine to drive it.

If the engine is 40% efficient (and it's probably lower), then the engine will require 800 watt hours of gasoline to produce 20 amps for an hour.

That's the input. The output of hydrogen, assuming a 70% efficient electrolysis unit (again probably on the high side), will be about 168 watt/hours of hydrogen. So you are turning gasoline containing 800 watt/hours of energy in to hydrogen containing 168 watt/hours of energy.

You are taking one form of energy (gasoline), converting it in to another (electricity), then converting that to a third (hydrogen). At each stage of the process you suffer a net loss.

The only way this can possibly be beneficial is if the hydrogen somehow makes the engine more efficient. I very much doubt that is the case, although any tuning during the installation, especially if it makes the engine run leaner, may improve economy.

[Angus]

I installed 2 alternators last year, they were 90 amps and 70 amps. That's at and under 1 hp.
As for always generating, I was in the belief that one under full load would be heavier to spin. You see, this is a powerful charging, and hence the "cutout" element on the alternator, it cuts out the charge to the battery, otherwise you will boil it/blow it.
So something here is not right. And as for the alternator not generating anything without the battery, well, that is correct, it neds a current to get things going, but ....there are also dynamos that don't need a battery....the alternator is just another approach.
It needs the volts to work, but bear in mind that the battery itself doesn't generate anything....
In short, I am not seeing any special benefit that makes this better for a car than a powerplant.

[Hornet33]

Again your ONLY looking at the electrical side of the thing and your trying to use an electrical formula to calculate the engines output which is machnical force, not electrical. You also trying to use an electrical formula to calculate the combustion ratio of gasoline vs hydrogen which is an explosive reaction producing machnical force, not electrical.

So if my 20amp booster needs 240 watts of power from the alternator to run, the engine is going to burn gasoline to create a mechanical force to turn the stator in the alternator to generate that power. Less that 1 horsepower needed to turn the alternator at that load from an engine producing over 350 horse power in normal operation.

Now with the hydrogen gas which has a much higher explosive ratio than gasoline injected into the engine the same machnical force ie horsepower can be produced with less gasoline required due to supplementing the gasoline air mixture with hydrogen and oxygen which will burn faster.

If you don't get it by now you never will. The power required to generate the hydrogen IS NOT proportional to the amount of fuel needed to run the engine and turn the alternator.

[CAP1]

I installed 2 alternators last year, they were 90 amps and 70 amps. That's at and under 1 hp.
As for always generating, I was in the belief that one under full load would be heavier to spin. You see, this is a powerful charging, and hence the "cutout" element on the alternator, it cuts out the charge to the battery, otherwise you will boil it/blow it.
So something here is not right. And as for the alternator not generating anything without the battery, well, that is correct, it neds a current to get things going, but ....there are also dynamos that don't need a battery....the alternator is just another approach.
It needs the volts to work, but bear in mind that the battery itself doesn't generate anything....
In short, I am not seeing any special benefit that makes this better for a car than a powerplant.

alternators generally shut down in "no load" conditions. honda has been doing this for years. chrysler started doing it in the late 80's early 90's.

you may be right about the hp draw. i thought i had checked it to 5 hp before, but i could be wrong.

 back when cars had generators, they needed only to spin. they also don't generate amperage as effeciently as alternators do.

also, like hornet said, you really can't equate an engines horsepower directly to electrical terms.

 what i was doing was talking about the amount of horsepower that it takes to turn the alternator, a/c compressor, etc.

[Maverick]

Yes they did. They hooked up a digital flow meter to the fuel input line at the intake manifold to messure true fuel flow into the engine. They had sensors hooked up all over the truck. They were also checking the emissions, manifold pressure, engine water and oil temp, as well as current draw on the battery and alternator. Test was run with lights on, radio turned on, and AC on normal at half fan speed to test everything at "normal" engine load conditions. They were pretty much looked at everything. Like I said I was there for around 2 hours with the truck on the rack.

Good deal, thanks Hornet.

[Nashwan]

Again your ONLY looking at the electrical side of the thing and your trying to use an electrical formula to calculate the engines output which is machnical force, not electrical. You also trying to use an electrical formula to calculate the combustion ratio of gasoline vs hydrogen which is an explosive reaction producing machnical force, not electrical.

No, it's not an electrical equation. It's power.

Less that 1 horsepower needed to turn the alternator at that load from an engine producing over 350 horse power in normal operation.

Yes. 1 hp = 746 watts. That means you will need about 0.4 hp to generate 20 amps.

Now with the hydrogen gas which has a much higher explosive ratio than gasoline injected into the engine the same machnical force ie horsepower can be produced with less gasoline required due to supplementing the gasoline air mixture with hydrogen and oxygen which will burn faster.

How?

You are getting hydrogen containing about 170 watt/hours to replace the gasoline that contained about 800 watt/hours that you had to burn to produce the hydrogen.

Gasoline (800 watt/hours) - engine (300 watt.hours) - alternator (240 watt/hours) - hydrogen (170 watt hours)

You end up with hydrogen containing a little over 20% of the energy that was in the gasoline you started with.

Yes it only uses 0.4 hp. Yes that's a tiny amount of the power the engine is capable of producing. But it's an even tinier amount of hydrogen. It's enough hydrogen, fed back in to the engine, to produce about 0.09 hp.

[Hornet33]

You are getting hydrogen containing about 170 watt/hours to replace the gasoline that contained about 800 watt/hours that you had to burn to produce the hydrogen.

Ay what volume of each fuel are you basing your calculations on, and where did you come up with these figures?

[Angus]

Did you ever hear your car running while still at low rpm, and the fan motor kicks in?
That is when the alternator starts taking energy, it gets heavier, and it makes a measureable impact on the engine.
Power is...power. And it doesn't come from nowhere....