Author Topic: The artful HO  (Read 3100 times)

Offline craig666

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2008, 01:15:18 PM »
HO is a valid tactic...deal with it.  P38 pilots in WWII were TOLD to HO when Zekes attacked in a BnZ approach.

However, that said, I do think it's absurd when someone has a 5K alt advantage that you mitigate through maneuvering, then he resorts to the HO as a last act of desperation. 

All that aside, if you aim for my nose and you don't start turning at 1.5K, the HO is on, as far as I'm concerned.  I don't care WHAT I'm flying..I'm squeezing the trigger.

Offline Vudak

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2008, 01:40:31 PM »
Complaining about HO's is like complaining that the ocean's blue. 
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Offline crockett

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2008, 01:42:34 PM »
HO is a valid tactic...deal with it.  P38 pilots in WWII were TOLD to HO when Zekes attacked in a BnZ approach.

However, that said, I do think it's absurd when someone has a 5K alt advantage that you mitigate through maneuvering, then he resorts to the HO as a last act of desperation. 

All that aside, if you aim for my nose and you don't start turning at 1.5K, the HO is on, as far as I'm concerned.  I don't care WHAT I'm flying..I'm squeezing the trigger.

What type of idiot would start turning on a merge before 1.5k...
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 01:52:22 PM by crockett »
"strafing"

Offline crockett

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2008, 01:51:17 PM »
:huh
first off any one who HOs in a zero is a idiot, thats the worst plane for HOs.

second, i hope you dont think all Hurri drivers HO, cuz this is one Hurri driver that tries very hard not to HO, i have had 5 and more attacking me at once and they are all Hoing, yet i still try to avoid them, i cant say that i never Ho, i will Ho a zero every time. :t

what i think is funny, is when people believe that because you fly a particular plane you are gonna fly a certain way, run in a LA, Ho in a hurri, ect ect

when are you that think like that, gonna realize every one is different? :noid

just know, that no matter what plane i am flying i will fight, i love the TnB, so i fly those planes that excel at that,  and if i am in a LA 5 or 7, i will not run until i am bingo, for the LA is one of, if not the best TnBer in game. :salute

No offense but saying you excel at flying in a Huri 2, a LA5 or 7 is like bragging you got the back seat on the short bus. It's just not saying much..  :lol

On the Zeeks HOing I see it all the time at CV fights, but I never said they weren't idiots..  :rofl


"strafing"

Offline ink

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2008, 01:56:18 PM »
Do you guys still consider it a HO if one person is deliberately trying to avoid the HO, and the other guy takes the shot?  What if as we approach I drop my nose to get separation and avoid the HO shot and the other guy takes it, is that not a HO in your eyes because at the time of the shot my plane's forward vector was maybe 5 or 10 degrees under his plane?  Gimme a break.

In the case I'm talking about the only angle this other guy had on me was because I deliberately tried to fly under him - I was in only a shallow climb and it would have been trivial to get my nose up and shoot him in the face.  I just hate it when longtime advanced players in a 1 on 1 relatively even scenario (he was in a Spit 9, I was in a Seafire) take the HO shot and then try to dress it up in fancy terms to avoid the stigma.

allow for more separation at merge.    

again a Ho is when both parties have a gun solution. so i would say no it wasn't a Ho.

ill try to explain, if i loose ya sorry im a artist not a writer,  

lets see, when i merge with someone(depending on nme planes e state)(and my e state) i will shallow dive or climb, when the target gets within 1500(again depending on nme plane gun range) i start to turn into them, i will fake a couple moves, as they are getting closer,(keep them guessing), at this point i am watching the nme closely, and i roll to the direction the nme will have to red out to follow, now depending on what the target does will depend on what i do.
i picture a giant basketball between me and nme, my goal is to fly around the ball to get behind the target, very similar to tai chi, imagine you are holding a basketball between your hands rolling it around, never taking hands off the ball, each one of the rolls is in reality a block or punch.(or both in one move)
now if you do this while in your plane, you will see when and where to pull the maneuvers you need to use to get behind the target.
   couple things to remember  the more fakes you can pull the more confused they will be, try to make them red out while you avoid the red out, turn or fake into the opposite direction the nme is traveling  don't be afraid of going inverted in the merge(this allows for awesome fakes), and learn to fly in the blackout, change direction when you are in the blackout(obviously not total blackout) carry 50% fuel and drop tanks.
ALWAYS ALWAYS fight,(NEVER VULCH) no matter the odds (this will improve your SA) and people will respect you allot more for trying to fight, then running at the sign of being out numbered, and if you do these things and dont give up, it will be very shortly before the Hoers easily die to your guns, and you will be able to carry on a awesome Multi con engagement.
  trust me there is nothing quite like the feeling(in AH) of killing multi cons trying to kill you, with no vulches or picks.
so far my personal best is 7 attackers with 7 sculpts, but i have had many 2 on 1, or 3 on 1 where i have killed all attackers, plus i have fought more then 10 planes by myself killing some of them, and when i finally run out of ammo fighting them just for the thrill of the fight.

well i hope this helps, like i said im not good with words.

oh and one more thing fight red guys for your killz, not green.(in other words don't hoard, fight the Hoard)

Offline CAP1

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2008, 02:07:54 PM »
Complaining about HO's is like complaining that the ocean's blue. 

come to new jersey. it's not blue here :rofl :rofl
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Offline CAP1

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2008, 02:10:15 PM »
No offense but saying you excel at flying in a Huri 2, a LA5 or 7 is like bragging you got the back seat on the short bus. It's just not saying much..  :lol

On the Zeeks HOing I see it all the time at CV fights, but I never said they weren't idiots..  :rofl





dude, you're either fishing, or really stupid.

each aircraft takes its own set of skills. some are easier than others.

some pilots that fly the fast planes and fight(?) BnZ style, would die rather quickly in a zeke. most that fly the slower turning planes can actually adfapt fairly quickly to the faster planes.

<<S>><
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Offline Bosco123

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2008, 02:13:16 PM »
I know how to avoid the HO, but what I hate the most is when people HO call it an "angle" or a "'high' Deflection" when they know it was a HO.
I personally know how to HO, and have HOed F6F in a Hurri1 and killed them, but I don't like to HO. I usually chose the side to get on someones six, other than getting the " 'High' Deflection" shots.
realy, I know when to shoot when its not to HO, and when its not time to shoot when it is to not HO.  
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Offline Bosco123

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2008, 02:14:59 PM »

dude, you're either fishing, or really stupid.

each aircraft takes its own set of skills. some are easier than others.

some pilots that fly the fast planes and fight(?) BnZ style, would die rather quickly in a zeke. most that fly the slower turning planes can actually adfapt fairly quickly to the faster planes.

<<S>><
so what your saying is that a spixteen needs skill?
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Offline BoilerDown

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2008, 02:22:53 PM »
Its not the turning ability that turns every merge with a zeke into a HO (if the zeke pulls the trigger), its the sheer lack of speed and lack of E retention of the zeke compared to the other plane (which is assuredly extending 1k or more away each time while moving 150 MPH faster).

I'm not complainging, I know what I'm going to get when I up the zeke.  Personally I think flying the A6M2 is entertaining even when my goal is only to see how many times I can make someone miss.
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Offline ink

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2008, 02:23:11 PM »
No offense but saying you excel at flying in a Huri 2, a LA5 or 7 is like bragging you got the back seat on the short bus. It's just not saying much..  :lol

On the Zeeks HOing I see it all the time at CV fights, but I never said they weren't idiots..  :rofl




just so you understand something, i fly the hurri because i love to fight and kill, fighting is what this game is about, air combat, killing the bad guy, and not going to prison for it.

who is smarter? the guy who flies the 38 (or other planes that are designed for BnZ tactics)  and tries to TnB in it, or the guy that takes up a true TnBer
to dogfight?
nether is "smarter" or better, but each is correct because that is how THEY wish to play, and that is whats important!!!!

i do not judge anyone for the planes they fly, i discern what kind of player they are by HOW they fly and "fight", not what.

and yes i have flown many a tour with out flying the Hurri or LA, and still got over 500 killz in a month.

but i have the best results in my Hurri, it seems i can hit better in that plane than any other.

Offline Winks

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2008, 02:38:41 PM »
Takes 2 to HO. 

I'll see your 2 and raise you 1  :D

Offline pluck

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2008, 02:43:45 PM »
HO is a valid tactic...deal with it.  P38 pilots in WWII were TOLD to HO when Zekes attacked in a BnZ approach.

However, that said, I do think it's absurd when someone has a 5K alt advantage that you mitigate through maneuvering, then he resorts to the HO as a last act of desperation. 

All that aside, if you aim for my nose and you don't start turning at 1.5K, the HO is on, as far as I'm concerned.  I don't care WHAT I'm flying..I'm squeezing the trigger.

yes, and they were also told that ho'ing is a also a dangerous tactic, as obviously, the enemy has guns on you as well.  I also seem recall this is something that was advised to "newer" pilots with little experience.  I don't think they were out there looking to joust and risk getting a cockpit full of lead.  granted the 38 was a better plane for the HO, still dangerous.  Also of note, the zero could not fly anywhere near as high as the 38's without losing alot of performance, making the 38 the typical bnz plane.

 In AH, most times HO is the worst choice made, unless it is your belief that you will not get another chance to shot target...meaning you have no other options available to you.  generally the situations that HO happens....low on E, fighting multiple contacts....someone (as mentioned above) turns into you forcing a HO, or 2 people lining up to HO on merge.  Really the only one I would see as a "good" tactic would be being low on E, and taking a shot at another con while outnumbered.  The other 2 usually occur when facing others who either don't really care about the fight or believe that if they do fight, they will die...their odds of killing a plane are better if they HO, at the high risk of dying/taking heavy damage themselves.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 03:00:38 PM by pluck »
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Offline SlapShot

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2008, 02:44:14 PM »
No it doesn't.  It takes two to merge, and although I usually manage to evade the HO, if the other guy happens to be a good shot he still may well get some hits on ya.

Speaking of which, a guy who I won't name HOed me yesterday on a merge and then denied it to my face on 200, saying that what he'd done didn't constitute a HO.  Let's see, we started 5k out from each other, he was probably 300-500 feet higher alt than me, so I was climbing slightly toward him.  In the last 1000 yards he climbed slightly then went nose down and shot at me as I passed just under him on the merge, from straight out in front of and just above me.  Hit my radiator and got some other pings, but I did manage to turn around and kill him.  Still, it was a blatant HO and he denied it repeatedly.  I thought it was a rather low-class move.

From what you described ... it was definitely not a HO ... so he was right.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: The artful HO
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2008, 02:47:34 PM »

Speaking of which, a guy who I won't name HOed me yesterday on a merge and then denied it to my face on 200, saying that what he'd done didn't constitute a HO.  Let's see, we started 5k out from each other, he was probably 300-500 feet higher alt than me, so I was climbing slightly toward him.  In the last 1000 yards he climbed slightly then went nose down and shot at me as I passed just under him on the merge, from straight out in front of and just above me.  Hit my radiator and got some other pings, but I did manage to turn around and kill him.  Still, it was a blatant HO and he denied it repeatedly.  I thought it was a rather low-class move.


That's not a Head On by any stretch of the imagination, it just describes your lack of merge tactics.  A head on is if you are both following a course that would lead to a head on collision, you know two people coming straight at each other.  By you diving under on the merge, eliminates any possibility of a head on shot since both planes are not able to bring their nose to bear on each other.  You did a stupid merge and got hit for it, lucky for you the other guy was just as bad a pilot as you were and you were able to recover from your mistake on the merge.


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