Combat Theater Feedback

[DeeZCamp]

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[Nash]

Hey Deja, I'm not sure how anyone could go about remedying the problems as you see them, except in some cases by the players themselves.

There is still endless respawning.

Well, yeah... but what would the alternative to this be? HTC forcing a 10 minute wait or something?

There is still a fight/die-fight/die mentallity.

People fight, people die. Then people fight again. I'm not sure what the problem is here unless we should get booted out of the arena for dieing.

There is virtually no authentic wingman type behavior.

Speak for yourself.     Last night we had 8-11 guys on, hooked up to RW, broken up into Echo and Foxtrot flights, finger four formation at combat spread, utilizing TACFORM and TACCOM, and *very* by-the-book discipline and ROE. The arena settings and lack of information made for an amazing bit of immersion. Loved it.

Most are entering a furball looking for the right opportunity.

Like you were I think (at least the times I saw you last night you were alone). How would any arena settings change this?

Look, I'm not sure what the problem is... but it doesn't seem to me like your gripes are with the CT itself, but player mentality. Sure - tough one to overcome granted but I don't think it's HTC's responsibility (or even within their ability) to solve the issues as you've defined them. They simply set up an arena and beyond that it lies within' each player to approach it as they wish.

When I look at your problems there's not one of them I can see a solution to. Now if your trying to say "hey guys this isn't realistic in the strictest sense", then sure - you have a point. But that's some kind of abstract argument to be made elsewhere if people are trying to tell you that this arena *were* historical in the strictest sense.

No...  HTC created a new arena with different settings that many people enjoy. How the players approach this arena could never be dictated to by HTC - it is up to each one of us to get what we want out of it.

That being said, there are definitely some issues and tweaks that could be made with the settings, but I doubt they'd address the types of issues you've raised. I would suggest you start a new topic that says "If you think the CT represents historical fighting, you're wrong", or something... but that doesn't strike me as a "gameplay & feedback" topic.

[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]

[AKDejaVu]

Hey Deja, I'm not sure how anyone could go about remedying the problems as you see them, except in some cases by the players themselves.

I've said as much Nash.  People say they want historical... they are given the tools... they turn it into an arena.

 

Well, yeah... but what would the alternative to this be? HTC forcing a 10 minute wait or something?

Not at all.  Its just that I am still seeing the same enemy pilot 2 or 3 times each sortie.  I'm not offering a cure to that... just saying there's nothing historical about it.

 

People fight, people die. Then people fight again. I'm not sure what the problem is here unless we should get booted out of the arena for dieing.

The dieing isn't the problem.  Its that there isn't a fight/land in there anywhere that is the problem.  There really isn't much of a point in RTB'n in this arena.  Dare I say... no point at all.

 

Speak for yourself.  Last night we had 8-11 guys on, hooked up to RW, broken up into Echo and Foxtrot flights, finger four formation at combat spread, utilizing TACFORM and TACCOM, and *very* by-the-book discipline and ROE. The arena settings and lack of information made for an amazing bit of immersion. Loved it.

And you went up against people doing the same thing?  Or did you go up against disorganized onesy twosy opponents where your flights were scrapping for a kill?  Bet I know the answer to that one.

 

Like you were I think (at least the times I saw you last night you were alone). How would any arena settings change this?

I was seldomely alone.  I stuck near 16 where the fight was.  There was always someone with in icon range of me.  It was pretty typical for everyone last night.

BTW... I was on and I was in the middle of the furball.  I'm not trying to say I was above all this behavior... just observing what was going on.

The furball mentality ruled supreme.  Moreso than it has ever done in the MA.  That is what I observed.

 

Look, I'm not sure what the problem is... but it doesn't seem to me like your gripes are with the CT itself, but player mentality. Sure - tough one to overcome granted but I don't think it's HTC's responsibility (or even within their ability) to solve the issues as you've defined them. They simply set up an arena and beyond that it lies within' each player to approach it as they wish.

Um.. don't know why you think I have a problem with HTC... I have actually said that's not the case.

What I have a problem with is the mentality that if we have x, y and z provided by HTC, then we will have a more realistic flight sim.  Unless the flight control actuators are replaced at the same time... that is not going to be the case.

I'm still waiting to see any real attempt at immersion.  Right now I see more concern with switching sides to even things out.  I see more concern with flying directly at that block with the red bar because that's where you think the fight will be.  I see planes diving into impossible situations in hopes of getting just one kill before dieing.

the Combat Arena is an excellent name for it.  I guess what really gets to me is that people are calling this a "Historical Arena".  It is not.

AKDejaVu

[Nash]

I think I understand where you're coming from...

One thing you said earlier sums up what your clarifying now:

"What I am also commenting on is how so many say they want something, and end up showing their true worth when it is provided.

So ok, it's not the CT - you're really complaining about people's behaviour or something. People have dissapointed you and here's your slap. You should get over this and know that nothing you say nor nothing HTC can do will fix this. Your input is simply a condemnation it seems to me. It's also a sort of pre-emptive strike against anyone who might say "The CT is historic, you MA guys are dweebs!". I don't see anyone bringing up such a thing on the BBS yet, so I'm not sure why this needs addressing now.

If *really* want to change people's approach to flying in the CT - the best place to start is with yourself.

Oh, and RTB is like... neccessary - we hit Bingo state many times.

Another thing - just being near 16 friendlies doesn't make you any less alone.

There's lots of fun to be had and in many different ways that you cannot get in the MA. It's just different, not better, is all. But you cannot expect anything from anyone else (and criticizing them for it is a big waste of time). You actually don't need people to fly a certain way to enjoy this.

[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]

[Nash]

So as to not let this continue to be derailed, here's my own (personally speaking) CT feedback.

1) Squad listing is still a bit weird. Sometimes kills are attributed to the squad name, and sometimes it attributes them to the person that gave you the invite into the squad.

2) I would like to either see shorter field distances, or the ability to capture fields.

3) The innability to capture fields and the rebuild times make JABO and Buffs meaningless (I enjoy that aspect of AH).

[Steven]

I strongly disagree.  Combat Theater IS an historical arena.  It's an arena where you go to fly an aircraft against aircraft that historically opposed each other.  You won't fly an F4U against LW.

The Special Events are where you go for what you are looking for.  That's because there is a dedicated start time and someone to create and enforce the rules of the event.  That really cannot be done in an arena setting because people are in and out all day in the arenas and the amount of time each person can dedicate to game play varies.  

Special Events = more "authentic" tactics and strategy of an historical nature.

Combat Theater = rolling plane set where historically accurate adversaries are pitted against each other 24/7.

Main Arena = fly what you will 24/7 and good luck.  

-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels

Oh yeah, you must've missed it after the CV action off A16 last night.  Zig (I think that was his name) created a Brit mission and we had a good number of Spit pilots and Typhie pilots fly eastward looking for action.  And we found it.  I was late with my Spit but as I kept climbing to the battle I was watching all the little black dots moving around and literally lost myself just watching it from afar.  Then when I jumped in the fight, it was a target rich environment for both sides and it took me at least a minute to settle down and actually start zeroing in on someone.  It was good and made the wait worthwhile.  Hopefully in the not-so-distant future it'll be Wildcats and A6M2s doing the same thing.

[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Steven ]

[funkedup]

I have seen some very well organized flying in there.  Last night I took up two sections (8 planes) of Typhoons and we were pretty damn organized.

The Jerries were plentiful and aggressive, so the two sections ended up apart from each other for a while, but fought very well on their own.  I think we had 7 or 8 kills total, with only one loss.  The 7 survivors rtb'ed together and my wingman Band and I even flew an overhead pattern for extra realism geek points.  And all this despite RW going down in flames as usual.

And it wasn't just the RAF flying in organized fashion - throughout the night I ran into well-organized Schwärme of 109s.  When you see four of them in a wide finger-four with 1000 yard spacing you know they ain't playin!

<S> to Band, Rosco, Mietla, Fester, JoshD (sp?), MarkAT, and Sancho!!!

[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[AKDejaVu]

If *really* want to change people's approach to flying in the CT - the best place to start is with yourself.

Not really much one player can do.  I could set up a mission... but then it would simply be one red bar for the other country to fly to.  This exact same thing happened with zig's mission last night.

If you decide to fly in any type of historical manner, it matters greatly what both the enemy and other friendlies are doing.

I noticed you didn't mention what type of opposition you ran into when you were flying in the finger fours.

 

Oh, and RTB is like... neccessary - we hit Bingo state many times.

Bingo ammo or bingo fuel?  Gotta wonder how many times you coulda hit bingo fuel at an hour and a half a shot.

Like I said... this wasn't the norm.. not from what I saw last night.

Look at it this way... in that mission Zig set up... the one where about 10 allied planes encountered about 10 LW planes... how many returned home from that one?

 

Another thing - just being near 16 friendlies doesn't make you any less alone.

Yes it does.

 

There's lots of fun to be had and in many different ways that you cannot get in the MA. It's just different, not better, is all.

Wow.. this looks afully similar to "Its the MA with different settings and less pilots".

I happen to agree with that.

 

But you cannot expect anything from anyone else (and criticizing them for it is a big waste of time). You actually don't need people to fly a certain way to enjoy this.

Its not a matter of needing people to fly a certain way to affect my enjoyment.  I was having fun in the CT last night.  I'm simply saying it whas the same type of fun that can be found in the MA right now.

And while people aren't responsible for your enjoyment in an arena... they do have a direct impact on it.

As for criticizing the people that are flaking out out on their shot at historical accuracy... it pales in comparison to the criticism levied on those unhistorical MA sods that ruined their fun for them.

AKDejaVu

[Nash]

I said start with yourself, and your response: "there's not really much a player can do" still reflects this attitude of forcing (or wanting, rather) other players to fly in a certain way. Or maybe it's merely condemning them for not. I don't know. What I am saying is that if *you* want to fly in some "historical" way, then get a group of like-minded people together (your squad would be one example) and fly how you see fit. Perhaps you'll run into opposition doing the same thing. Barring that there really is no other way, nor a solution that I can see. You're totally welcome to fly with us if we are together and coordinated - just give us a shout. I think it would be great to see a bunch of people forming up like this. But certainly not mandated (not possible anyway).

The CT doesn't strike me as the be all end all (not sure if it was intended to be), just a neat theater and due to some things that it doesn't have (strat/field capture etc.) I still use the MA as well. I use the CT because it too has some things that the MA doesn't. I certainly see no reason why the CT should be given some sense of higher importance. Different settings, allowing different tactics and different play. That's all. Do with it what you see fit.

Bingo fuel. We use "Winchester" for ammo. Bingo is something predetrmined before we even launch. In 3 sorties we hit that twice.

Being near 16 friendlies doesn't make you any less alone. You think it does. It depends on what your definition of that is, but if you're yearning for historical flying then simply having uncoordinated friendlies in your vicinity without communication makes you very alone indeed.

"Wow.. this looks afully similar to "Its the MA with different settings and less pilots"."

Why the suprise here? And I didn't bring up less pilots - it's merely another arena with different settings - absolutely.

I'm not going to be dragged into some kind of semantics fight over this. Again, it's different, it's there, and make of it what you want.

[Steven]

<<<but then it would simply be one red bar for the other country to fly to. This exact same thing happened with zig's mission last night.>>>

I just don't get it.  I'm at a loss here.  Now the guy is upset because fighters flew towards fighters and an engagement took place.

I'm no expert on WW2, but I hear that fighters sometimes actually patrolled looking for the enemy and sometimes that ended up being another group of fighters and a furball ensued.  Now I have the choice of an arena filled with all aircraft and an arena that will rotate between historically opposed aircraft.  I personally prefer the latter but concede it may not be for everyone.  I will appreciate this new arena even more when we have EARLY WAR aircraft.  I really think we are seeing this arena as a baby but one day this is where the early-war flyers will congretate (but again, will not be exclusive to that.)  

And though (it seems to me) the emphasis is taken off base capture in this new arena, bombers can still bomb and have fun.  In fact, the bombing will probably be more realistic due to the defenses being able to adequately prepare themselves and get up to a good altitude making necessary a good fighter escort for the bombers.  The bombing may not have as great an impact in MA, but then the destruction of fighters by fighters has no affect in any arena like it did in WW2 because this is not a war of attrition of aircraft and/or pilots.  

Personally, I was looking for something that allowed historical matchups and now I have it.  End of story.  I do see a difference and I prefer the new arena.  I see the new arena becoming more valuable in the future and will be more utilized as early-war planes are introduced.  I want to fly a Wildcat and the MA will never be the place to have fun doing that.  I'm now a happy person.

That's really my point and I'll stop posting in this particular thread.  Bummer for you guys it's a boring workday for me and I've had tons of time to post here.

-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels

[AKDejaVu]

I just don't get it. I'm at a loss here. Now the guy is upset because fighters flew towards fighters and an engagement took place.

Sigh...

flying towards the red bar in hopes of finding an engagement.  Knowing that the red bar represents the only other fighters in the arena.  Having to go there to find a fight.

There was an engagement all night last night.  I musta got some 40 or 50 kills.

Once again.. how is this arena different from the MA?  The planeset is it.  And that's even being argued for the sake of historical matchup.

So is the fact that this was a killer furball somehow magically make it better than the MA?  I've seen plenty of furballs there too.  Mixed planes mixing it up in chaos.  An organized mission met by the other side because they really had nothing else to do at the time.  How is this different than the MA?

AKDejaVu

[Nash]

Deja... Is this thread called "how is this different from the MA"?

Nope.

Let it go here or start another thread for this. Better yet, give actual feedback. Your's is not constructive criticism, it is merely critisicm. Dunno what yer motive is but take it somewhere else if yer looking for a fight. Having to create a
thread on your very own (no matter how benign, like this one) and being at the mercy of folks like you aint as convenient as vulching in on a prefabbed thread, I know... but you're creative... I'm sure you can come up with something provocative.

This just gets so... tedious...

[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]

[Eagler]

one benny you get from flyin in the CA is that MA is easier. Going back to long range icons and knowing the average pilot skill isn't as high as it is in CA. So far in CA, I haven't flown against an allied pilot whose skill set isn't 10x mine  

thanks for the new arena HTC!

[maik]

I just LUV CT   .

[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: maik ]

[GRUNHERZ]

You know whatr DJ if you dont like stay the diddly out.


Im sick and tired of your endless whining about things you dont like and just why they suck so much. You are one the biggest whiners in the game. You just hapend to whine against things changing and against HTC trying something, anything new and different.

So if it sucks so much for YOU DJ, stay the diddly out, NOBODY is forcing YOU DJ to play there.

YOU DJ, dont play it, shut diddly up and let people enjoy CT if THEY LIKE IT.


DJVU your pretty resonable most the time and seem a very good guy 1 on 1 in the MA  but this pointless BBS whining of yours has gone way too far.

If you dont like CT dont play it.

[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: GRUNHERZ ]