D4Y1 Suisei (Judy)

[Bino]

...
And since 95% of the action is in the MAs you have to use "survivability" and "usability" as a criteria too. Whats the use of going to all that trouble to model a Queen?
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If you look at my initial post, you'll see that I specifically requested the D4Y for use in late-war special events.  Compared to events, I really don't care all that much for the MA, personally.  As you say, to each his own.   

[SmokinLoon]

If a plane was produced (and meets AH2 criteria to be incliuded) and proved to have a potential for a great score card (ability to hang in the LW arenas) due to its ability (speed, climb, turn, guns, ord, etc), but it didnt have a major impact on the war due to factors far away from the plane itself... then there is no reason not to include it other than HTC's own yay-nay sysem.

I think the dual engined Bf110 inspired Ki-45 "Nick" would be a better fit (as I have said in other threads) than any other Japanese plane at the moment.  It best fills the gap in the Jap line up, IMO.  The Ki-45 was used as a bomber intercepter and ground attack platform with great success.  It was armed with a 20mm, 37mm, and could carry a pair of 500lb bombs mounted under the wings.  

Or...

the GM4 "Betty" bomber would be nice to see as well.  Although, it really doesnt offer much over the Ki-67 we already have, 'cept for another 1k of bombs and two 20mm cannons for defense.  None the less, it was Japan's most widely used and important bomber, imo.    

[humble]

You are suggesting a plane in place of a dive bomber of which you are not sure if it carried bombs or not?

Grace was a torpedo bomber first, it is said that it could carry the same amount of bombs what the torpedo weights (800kg). AFAIK the bombbay had only two racks for bombs so I think that would limit its bombload even further to 2x250kg. With only little over a hundred made I think it's clear that Judy is the dive bomber and Jill is the torpedo bomber which should be added to the Japanese planeset well before Grace.

I'm suggesting a plane that would fit for the MA environment. Since no clear data on its actual bomb load out was readily available I stuck with what was factually correct. Your commenting on me but then you use the " i think" and "limit".

What should be added or not added is speculative and based on points of view. While I agree 100% that scenario/FSO needs are very important what we're actually getting tends to be MA driven Wirble, Firefly, T-34/85 etc.

If the Grace can carry 2x 500K fly 352mph and have 2 x 20mm guns then its a very viable carrier strike bird that would get a lot of use in the MA. It would also be a great low perk bomber option given its rarity, speed and cannon.

I think the Judy would be a great addition as well and obviously much more accurate for scenario's but when viewed from a MA perspective the G.55 is the most likely addition. Beyond that the Grace might just be the most intriguing addition that fits the "rules"...

[Sikboy]

And after The Marianas, where IJN aviation died, and where the Judy was slaughtered wholesale, it became just another medium range land based dive bomber outclassed by the latest USN fighters. Had the large fast IJN CVs survived long enough maybe it would have had some impact but the fact is they didn't and "it" didn't.

Luckily this is AH, and not WWII. The Judy, if included still COULD have an impact on battles from Midway (as a scout) to the fall of Japan. 1 big problem with the Judy in combat was the lack of trained pilots to fly them, thanks to the bulk of the veteran pilots buying it in Vals. We don't have that problem in AH Events. In AH Events The Air Wing of a 1944 Shokaku has just as many experienced pilots as a 1941 Hiryu.

I appreciate that it would have almost zero use in the MA, but it would fair about a billion times better vs. a Hellcat than the D3A. There are tons of "Queens" that get modeled in the game. Development of the planeset has always split between SEA and MA. While I have no problem with the bulk of the planes being focused on the MA, I think that the SEA deserves attention too.

I believe that the Mid-late war IJN Carrier Strike Plane is the biggest hole in the planeset for which there is no conceivable substitute. While the Grace would have better (yet still limited) MA appeal, I like Judy for her mid-war availability and the considerable jump in strike capability she provides over the existing IJN stike planes (same bomb-load, greater speed and maneuverability)

-Sik   

[Wmaker]

I'm suggesting a plane that would fit for the MA environment. Since no clear data on its actual bomb load out was readily available I stuck with what was factually correct. Your commenting on me but then you use the " i think" and "limit".

What should be added or not added is speculative and based on points of view. While I agree 100% that scenario/FSO needs are very important what we're actually getting tends to be MA driven Wirble, Firefly, T-34/85 etc.

If the Grace can carry 2x 500K fly 352mph and have 2 x 20mm guns then its a very viable carrier strike bird that would get a lot of use in the MA. It would also be a great low perk bomber option given its rarity, speed and cannon.

I think the Judy would be a great addition as well and obviously much more accurate for scenario's but when viewed from a MA perspective the G.55 is the most likely addition. Beyond that the Grace might just be the most intriguing addition that fits the "rules"...

I just found it a bit odd that you would rather have and aircraft in place of a dive bomber of which you aren't sure if it carried bombs or not. ~350mph strike aircraft with no air to mud ordinance...can't really see how the 20mms are gonna help in that situation. I can't really see the point about the MA either, unless someone wants to specifically fly Japanese/axis a/c only, since we have loads of carrier borne jabos with much more ordinance, speed and armament.

Unless someone knows better, I've read that it had two hard points in its bombbay. AFAIK Japanese didn't have 400kg bombs. Whether a 500kg bomb would fit into the bombay with 250kg one I do not know. That way the bomb load could be 750kg, 50kgs short of the torpedo weight. Two 500kg ones would go 200kgs over that and 800kg is the maximum ordinance quoted in most sources.

AFAIK all the carrier planes in AH flew of the carriers operationally during the war (some more, some less). While Grace designed as a carrier plane it never flew off carriers operationally because Japan didn't have any operational when Grace started its very short service. I guess its matter of opinion whether it should be available from carriers in AH...personally I think it would be streching it a bit too far.

Btw, here's some discussion about the short operational history of the Grace:

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=6353.0

[dkff49]

For use in late-war special events, could we please have the IJN's D4Y carrier-based dive bomber? 

Also used as a recon bird, some sources call it the fastest carrier-based strike plane of the war. With over 2,000 produced, it was second to only the Zero among IJN carrier types in terms of the number deployed in service.

Thanks! 


Early model with liquid-cooled inverted-V engine:

(Image removed from quote.)

Late model version with air-cooled radial engine:

(Image removed from quote.)

would love to see this too

[humble]

I just found it a bit odd that you would rather have and aircraft in place of a dive bomber of which you aren't sure if it carried bombs or not. ~350mph strike aircraft with no air to mud ordinance...can't really see how the 20mms are gonna help in that situation. I can't really see the point about the MA either, unless someone wants to specifically fly Japanese/axis a/c only, since we have loads of carrier borne jabos with much more ordinance, speed and armament.

Unless someone knows better, I've read that it had two hard points in its bombbay. AFAIK Japanese didn't have 400kg bombs. Whether a 500kg bomb would fit into the bombay with 250kg one I do not know. That way the bomb load could be 750kg, 50kgs short of the torpedo weight. Two 500kg ones would go 200kgs over that and 800kg is the maximum ordinance quoted in most sources.

AFAIK all the carrier planes in AH flew of the carriers operationally during the war (some more, some less). While Grace designed as a carrier plane it never flew off carriers operationally because Japan didn't have any operational when Grace started its very short service. I guess its matter of opinion whether it should be available from carriers in AH...personally I think it would be streching it a bit too far.

Btw, here's some discussion about the short operational history of the Grace:

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=6353.0

It was a carrier capable plane so no question in that regard IMO. No doubt its a late war bird and of limited value in scenario's etc. And in no way am I against the Judy at all. The Grace would get a fair amount of use in the MA I think since its a bomber/attack plane that could also de-ack pretty well and be somewhat survivable. Id love to try it in an air to air role. Give me an SBD with 2 x 20mm and I'd wreak some havoc:)

[humble]

This is the best write up I could find, which states it was actually designed to replace the D4Y1...


The Aichi B7A Ryusei was an outstanding dual role torpedo / dive bomber designed to replace the Nakajima B6N Tenzan and the Yokosuka D4Y Suisei in Imperial Japanese Navy service. It had excellent maneuverability and high performance. Unfortunately, the B7A Ryusei, like many other late war Japanese military aircraft, did not make a significant impact in Japan's declining fortunes.

The B7A Ryusei was designed to meet a 1941 Imperial Japanese Navy requirement to replace the Nakajima B6N Tenzan and the Yokosuka D4Y Suisei, which were just starting to fly as prototypes. Although it first flew in May 1942, teething trouble with the Nakajima Homare 11 engine delayed the Ryusei's service entry until after mid 1944.

The Ryusei design was outstanding. As a torpedo and dive bomber, it's speed, weapons load, and range were equal to or superior to that of the Curtiss SB2D Helldiver and the Grumman TBF Avenger. The Nakajima Homare 11 radial engine, gave the B7A Ryusei a high rate of climb and a top speed of 352 mph. This was as fast as the Mitsubishi A6M Zero and only 28 mph slower than the US Navy's Grumman F6F Hellcat. Maneuverability was also excellent and equivalent to the A6M Zero.

The Ryusei was one of the largest and heaviest attack craft in the Imperial Japanese Navy arsenal. Clearly intended for use with Japan's larger fleet carriers, it arrived too late to make an impact on the war. The Imperial Japanese Navy had lost most of it's large fleet carriers at Midway, the Philippine Sea, and Leyte Gulf by the time the Ryusei entered service. The Ryusei served from land bases and many were lost in kamikaze attacks at the end of the war.

By the end of the war only 105 were built. The small production numbers is largely the fault a large earthquake which destroyer the Aichi factory at Funakata in May 1945.

The last surviving example of a Aichi B7A Ryusei is in the US National Air and Space Museum. The US Navy brought it back from Japan for evaluation after the war. After completing evaluations, the US Navy turned it over to the Smithsonian Institution. It is currently in storage in Maryland awaiting restoration.

[humble]

Whats interesting is that multiple sites have it being capable of beating a zero in handling and ACM....

[Helm]

Far too bias on this anti anything american Bs, tired of reading it day in and day out helm.

Thats funny.... because I say that we have alot of USA planes to fly and very few Japanese planes to fly I am labled 'Anti'- american ....


Helm ...out

[humble]

Thats funny.... because I say that we have alot of USA planes to fly and very few Japanese planes to fly I am labled 'Anti'- american ....


Helm ...out

I'm always a bit curious about that. Trying to look at things objectively every major German fighter variant is portrayed. The majority of the British fighters are portrayed (more engine variations with the spits then the 109's). The Oscar is the biggest gap in the Japanese set, with few of the missing planes otherwise having large production runs. While the Russian plane set is more fragmented the reality is that the lend-lease planes are more important up till mid 43 and the la-5/7 and Yak-9 U/T really do represent the bulk of the 44-45 plane set (along with the P-39Q). The 202/205 is a good representation of the Italian plane set for 1943 (recognizing early war planes are totally missing).

From a functional perspective we have the vast majority of major planes on all sides. While the he-111 or Me-410 or PE-2 or A-26 are potentially nice none are really needed. In reality the single most important plane missing was the P-39. The Oscar would be next up and realistically the Judy...but functionally planes like the 410, A-26, Pe-2 are functionally redundant.

[Karnak]

Humble, it depends on how you look at it.  You are focusing on numbers built, which is valid in one way.  I, and I suspect Helm, look also at the variety of types build.  Japan fielded a very large number of combat types while not having the industrial base to produce them in the tens of thousands, often not even in the thousands.  But they did have a very large variety of combat aircraft types, second only to the USA.  And more types means more flavor to the game, and that is another valid way of looking at it.

Too my mind the Japanese and Russian sets need the most attention.  Then the Italians.  The British and Germans still have some significant holes too.

Here is a list of Japanese aircraft that would not be horrible in the MA:

A6M3a (a halfway mark between the A6Ms we have)
B6N (mid war carrier strike plane, more than 1200 built)
B7A1 (late war carrier strike plane, never operated from carriers, more than 100 built)
D4Y (very fast carrier strike plane, more than 2000 built)
J2M3a (fast climbing interceptor, about 500 built)
Ki-44 (mid war fighter armed with four 12.7mm guns, more than 1200 built)
Ki-46 (recon and heavy fighter, more than 1700 built)
Ki-102 (late war strike aircraft and heavy fighter, more than 200 built)
N1K1-J (earlier version of the N1K2-J, less ammo, almost 1000 built)
P1Y1 (Fast medium bomber, more than 1000 built)

[Krusty]

While I agree the japanese planeset is lacking, I disagree as to how.

B7a1 saw little to no service, not even starting production until late 1944 and stopping in May 1945 when an earthquake destroyed the factory.

Ki-46 was mostly unarmed recon planes (of that 1700). Only the Kai-III had weapons installed, and of the 600 Kai-III produced most were still unarmed. A number were modified to carry 2x 20mm in the nose and an oblique cannon, but many were converted to night fighters to attack B-29s (this was one of the few reliable planes that could get up to the B-29s). I'd rather see the Ki-45, which saw a lot more service but had lesser armaments (often mixed MG or a single 37mm with limited ammo).

Ki-102 saw limited use on Okinawa. That's it. Only 200 or so made and those were held on the mainland in preparation of dropping special bombs (maybe kamikaze, would be my guess?) on allies that invaded. I don't even think they used - just stored for future use.

P1Y1: As much as I love the lines and performance on this, of the 1000 built they only had a handful of skilled crews to use them, and less gas. Some were relegated to kamikaze (I have a pic from a book of one before it hits the water) and some with better engines were used as night fighters. As nice as it is, it would be dishonest to say it was representative of the WW2 Japanese.

I'd like to see the Ki-27. MANY built. Was a frontline fighter for the entire first year of the war, as well as a major enemy of the Flying Tigers. Ki-44 and Ki-43 for obvious reasons. D4Y for an inline early/mid dive bomber. Jack for an interceptor. A6m5C or later weapons option to allow it to fight later-war planes with more firepower. Ki-45 because it was widely used as a medium (heavy for the Japanese?) fighter. B6N Jill as a later replacement for the B5N Kate. G4M Betty just because it's vital. G3M Nell because it would be a nice early war model that saw service. Over 1000 built of the G3M2 and G3M3 (the G3M1 was mostly for service trials) and it saw service in the Chinese front and was produced until 1941. Oh, it also has a 20mm dorsal cannon

[humble]

No question that there are an interesting variety of Japanese planes. Looking just at the Ki-44 as a single possibility. Are we getting all of them or the original type I, Type IIb or the late war type III?

I've always thought the Jack would be a great addition but are we looking at the M3a (of which just 26 were built) or the 2JM3 (~260) or the 2JM2 (~155) or other rare sub types? Recognizing the Judy, Oscar and Betty (and very possibley the Ki-46 as well) are essential for scenarios they are inevitable. Realistically some plane like the 2JM3 (not eh 3a IMO) is needed for late war "home defense" scenarios as well.

Once you get into the lower production birds you have all kinds of possibilities. Personally I disagree with a number of the "rules" for selection criteria. I'll look at 4 planes specifically, the Grace as Krusty mentioned was stopped by an earthquake. Does it have any real place in scenarios...no. However it was a production late war plane that was fully operational and fits in a simulated WW2 flight sim just fine.

The D0-335 was ordered into priority production in 1944, the original tooling was bombed and Henkiel dragged its feet with stopping the ordered swap out to the point that the D0-335 was never produced. Again no place in scenarios but a late war production plane that fits just fine in a sim.

The Meteor was operational and fully capable of combat operations but not deployed (a few flew in Belgium I think) as was the US F7F that was actually delivered to a state side operational squadron in May of 1944. None of these planes belong in any historical reenactment of the war but all are actual production planes that were in service well before the end of the war.

[Krusty]

I disagree with the mentality of "it was made, it fits into a sim" because you're taking the feel of WW2 away from the game. All of a sudden it's Luft '46 in IL2 all over again.