Author Topic: Cheat ?  (Read 462 times)

Offline easymo

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« on: February 07, 2001, 10:50:00 AM »
 When Combat trim was first interduced, there were posts, by HTC, stating that it would not give you an edge, like WB.

 In an E management thread. The chief trainer stated that Combat trim negated the atvantages of trimming by hand that the old FM had. There were later posts by people stateing they use both. I have problems with this practice.

 If you trim by hand, it takes time (sometimes it feels like a very long time) for the trim tabs to move from one point to another. On the other hand, the tabs aligne instantly, if you hit the CT button. This seems like an out right cheat to me.

 What I would suggest. Is force people to pick manual, or CT, before they take off. Then they have to fly in that mode until they are down again. Or, at the very least, speed up movement of the tabs when hand trimming to even things out.

Offline Tac

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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2001, 12:44:00 PM »
cc, please speed up the manual trimming.

Offline Jochen

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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2001, 08:12:00 AM »
In beta Fw 190A-8 had very fast trim in all axes which was fine because real A-8 had only elevator trim because it didn't need any other trimming. In some phase the trim got significantly slower to use, I wonder why.

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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

Offline Lephturn

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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2001, 09:10:00 AM »
First of all, please quote me correctly.  

I said:
 
Quote
I think the combat trim negates much of the advantage that the manual trim tricks used to give you, but maybe I'm wrong.

That's far from a statement of fact.  Also, please remember that I have no inside information.  I'm only going by what information I have gathered by playing the game, and some by reading readme files and such.

Now, with that out of the way, let me explain this a little further.

I believe that HT implemented combat trim in a manner that "gets you close" to being in trim.  It's not an instant uber-trim by any means.  This is why guys like Nath use both combat trim and manual.  Combat trim is not instant, and it is not exact.  As evidence, take your plane out of combat trim and you will find it is not perfectly trimmed.  It's close, but that's it.  You can still get better trimmed by manual control.

Now lets look at the way it used to be.  First take me for example.  I'm a very experienced but decidedly average pilot with a MS Sidewinder Pre Pro 2 joystick.  If I'm going to use manual trim it's gotta be the keyboard.  Now compare me to somebody with equal skills but who has a full HOTAS setup with spare hats and "trim wheels" and such.  The guy with the better setup, in the past, could effectively use manual trim in a fight very well, and I couldn't.  I have both hands on my stick, and can't move my left hand to the keyboard easily and find the trim keys like I need to.  The guy with the fancy setup will be able to trim constantly and quickly, while I am pretty much screwed.  I can get close, but not as "in trim" as the other fellow, and I get distracted doing it.  In the worst case, I can't get full elevator authority because I'm too far out of trim.  If I'm fairly new at this, I likely don't even understand why.

With combat trim, much of this inequality is removed.  Not all of it, but most.  Combat trim does two things, first it makes normal flight much more manageable.  Newbies flying thier first sorties, and vets not engaged in combat, have a much reduced task load if they wish.  This doesn't give them the ultimate in performance, but if you are not in combat, it's not that big of a deal.  Second, combat trim removes the burden of being REQUIRED to manually trim to be competitive.  In the past, if you didn't manually trim, you could be denied full elevator authority, due to the way the flight control system works in the sim.  Unless you were a veteran who knew that you had to fly the trim keys all the time to get maximum performance, especially in slow TnB fights, you would get beat.

The result of the Combat Trim feature HT implemented is just what I had hoped it would be.  Namely, it has removed the burden of tedious trim adjustment and decreased the gap between those with top-end equipment, and those without.  I still feel that having top end gear is an advantage, it's just not such an overwhelming one anymore.  I also still think that in some situations (such as a slow turning fight) manually trimming can still be an advantage.  The difference is, that advantage is a much smaller one now.

Lets look at what I feel the results are on a point by point basis.

1.  Basic flight and combat easier for newbies.

2.  Difference in control between high-end and more basic flight control systems is smaller.

3.  More time flying the plane with the flight controls instead of the trim keys.  Combat is about BFM and ACM, not about whether or not you understand and can deal with the trim system.

These are all good things.  I don't see any problems the combat trim introduced.  Do you guys see anything I've missed?

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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2001, 09:25:00 AM »
 
Quote
" Combat trim is not instant, and it is not exact"

Hit X once...see that instant trim you get on auto-pilot?

Offline easymo

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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2001, 03:24:00 PM »
 Put you plane badly out of trim. Watch the indicator. Hit the magic CT button. INSTANTLY the trim snaps to position.

 I have nothing against easymode. Im just saying make it take a second or two, Like auto trim on speed. Or better yet, what i said above. Pick one before you take off.

 BTW. most of the chog whines would go away. Thats a tuff plane to fight in, if you have to keep it in trim.

[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 02-08-2001).]

Offline Tac

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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2001, 04:58:00 PM »
IMHO, the reason for combat trim is exactly what lephturn said. Guys with keyboard cant even come close to competing against those with full HOTAS.

Manual trim should be much faster to let the manual trimmers..well, trim faster (duh). The combat trim is fast (almost instant), manual trim should be allowed to compete with such capability.

Offline Lephturn

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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2001, 07:38:00 AM »
Yes, it moves instantly at first, but if you watch your indicators and snap your plane in and out of auto-trim, it takes a while for it to "settle" if you are not in the right position or at the right speed.  You guys are right though, it does engage instantly, although I think it takes a few seconds to "zero in" closer to a proper trim condition.  Snapping it on and off would get you really close to the desired trim setting instantly.

I understand your point that snapping it on and off adjusts the trim faster than manual, but how is that different from just leaving combat trim on all the time?  I understand your point that it's instant in a way, but what's the negative effect on gameplay of that?  

I guess you can combine the benefits of both by snapping combat trim on/off quickly and then manual trimming from there.  Still, wouldn't you just leave CT on and then start manual trimming when you feel you need to?

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[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-09-2001).]

Offline Toad

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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2001, 07:57:00 AM »
Yes, Leph, I think you missed one.

This will get me hosed with a flamethrower but...

The introduction of Combat Trim is/was a nod towards realism. Trim controls are by definition SECONDARY FLIGHT CONTROLS. You "fly" and airplane with its PRIMARY flight controls.

The way trim is/was modeled without Combat Trim made it a Primary control. CT is an attempt to correct that and as such should be applauded, IMHO.

I haven't used it much simply because I was already used to manual trimming. I think I'll look into it a bit more.

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Offline Graywolf

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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2001, 08:32:00 AM »
I set my joystick not to auto center. That way I only have to trim the rudder...



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Offline easymo

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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2001, 03:23:00 PM »
 One more and ill get off this.

  IMHO this is worse than the old WB,s "easymode in the Main" argument. There are 3 going on here. With CT you have most of the easymode advantages, with none of the disadvantages.

 We are not playing chess, and checkers at the same time, on the same board. Like WB use to be. We are playing a game that allows you to magically turn your chess piece into a checker piece at the push of a button.

 There is no order or logic to it. I cant think a another game that allows one player to play with one set of rules, and the other to use a different set. And a third to use a combination of both, at will.

[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 02-09-2001).]

Offline ljkdern

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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2001, 01:07:00 AM »
I think this whole trim thing is a little messed up. Using trim during a turning fight is wierd. Trim is supposed to be for stablizing a climb, descent, or level flight so you dont have to keep pressure on the stick all the time. If your plane is going slow enough so there are no compression effects then you should be able to get full deflection of any control surface and any amount of trimming will only add drag. I can see using trim to get out of a dive when B&Zing but HAVING to use it to get an advantage during a turning fight I think is just unrealistic. I could be wrong cause ive never flown a ww2 fighter but thats just my understanding of trim.

Offline Zigrat

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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2001, 02:23:00 AM »
i think u should be able to combat trim or manual trim, but not both.

select which 1 u wantgb4 takin off.


Offline Tac

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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2001, 05:40:00 PM »
I always pull my elevators upwards when trying to escape from a compressed dive. You saying that not allowing me to do this if I have combat trim on will make it fair? The guy without the trim will be able to not only get out of his dive first, be he trimmed or not, but he can also use it to outflip me in the vertical.

I think the ONLY reason why I use the Combat trim is because I only have 2 hands, 1 on the joystick and 1 on the throttle. Manual trimming is so damn slow that If I dive in a torque monster (109g10 with WEP or F4U) and level and try and turn fight at a much lower alt, my plane will go one way, my joystick will point the other way. I am not the superman to trim elevator, aleiron and rudder at the same time, I dont have rudder pedals to allow me to control my plane if the aleiron trim is off.

Plus bear in mind that if I wanted to take out the combat trim I have to go to clipboard and go through an extensive, 5 second process of click click click to do it, the key you can map to turn the CTrim on and off is useless as any autopilot you use will engage the combat trim the moment you go off that autopilot mode.

Solution? Just leave things as they are significantly speed up the manual trim, its that simple.

Offline Cobra

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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2001, 08:43:00 AM »
Actually, IMO, using manual trim in a turn fight to gain a tighter turning radius is very unrealistic and a form of easy mode and/or a gaming of the game.  But I do it, like everyone else looking to get that extra ounce of turn in the fight.

Manipulating the trim tabs, especially the elevator tab, to gain more out of the flight envelope is not what trimming is all about.

How realistic is it to run the elevator trim all the way up to the stops to gain a tighter turn?

To help relieve stick pressure in a dive...YES, but to gain more from the flight envelope...NO.

Cobra