More Strat Suggestions.

[Downtown]

Well,

The other night (I'm a ROOK BTW) a fellow rook got his name in the buffer a few times.

I think on one sortie he got 38 and on the next 14.

He was not flying a B-26, he parked it near the spawning point of a field in contention, and toasted a few as they spawned.

Now, normally I would have made much noise and beratement of this individual for such activity, but I didn't.

I didn't because I watched a pony spawn from that field a few minutes before, and kill two Paratroopers dropped by a C-47.  Killing those two Paras kept us from capturing that field.

What I would like to see is!!!

1. Allow all buff guns to be on, all times.  If someone wants to park a B-17 on a runway and use it as an Ack Platform, SO BE IT.  No Gear Up and No Weight on Wheels, let them sit in their plane on the ground, and shoot from the top turret and sides and nose and tail.

2. Make it so that If I drop a bomb from alt, it will kill any planes I hit.

3. Make it so if I bomb all the ammo bunkers at a field new spawning planes at that field don't get ammo, until that team flies in a C-47 and lands at that field to deliver Ammo/Fuel/Parts/Troops/Etc.. Etc.. or the Ammo Bunkers Rebuild.

4. Make it so that if I bomb the fuel at a particular Airfield, and planes spawning on the runway at a particular field, do so with no fuel, until a C-47 arrives at that field delivering Fuel/Ammo/Parts/Troops/Etc... Etc... or that Fuel Bunkers Rebuild.

5. Make it so that If I bomb all the System Targets at a field (Hangar/Tower/Barraks) Then NO PLANES CAN SPAWN AT A FIELD.  SOmeone who clicks Fly or types .Fly will just be a Pilot who is Planeless at the spawning point.

What I am saying here is.

If you are at a Airfield under attack, and a buff comes over and takes out the ack, you will be spawning at a vultch fest.  If you choose to spawn a B-17 and use it as Ack, you can do so.  Then the NME Bomber, takes out the AMmo Bunkers, the next time you spawn that B-17 and move to a gun position, and squeeze the trigger nothing happens cause that field is out of ammo.  Meanwhile the B-17 bombs the Fuel BUnkers, and the next time you spawn in that B-17 you can't even start the engines cause there is no fuel at that airfield.  So you sit at the spawning point of the runway, in a B-17 with no ammo and no fuel.

Now, you have a choice, after your unarmed, imobile bombers is vultched, spawn from another field, and fly a C-47 to the field in contention, and deliver fuel, say a C-47 can Carry 5000 Gallons of AV Fuel, 50,000 Rounds Of Various Amuniton, and 5 paras.

Your feild can't rebuild without the barracks cause there are no troops to do the rebuilding.

So, flying in 10 C-47 from another field to the field in Contention will cause a complete restoration of that field facilities.

THe Attackers should only need to drop or deliver 10 paras in 1 C-47 to capture a field.

Of course all these other features (Concerning your ability to get a fully loaded C-47 to a field in contention should depend on the overall health of your nation.  If your AMmo Factory/COmplex has been bombed out, then you can only fly 10,000 rnds from another field to the field in contention.)

Anyhow, what this does is add another strategic element to field capture, disabling the STRATEGIC TARGETS at a field in contention will have an Positive effect in making the field more capturable, and limit the defenders rescources.  I personally would BOmb the ACK/AMMO/FUEL, and then let them spawn unarmed/unfueld aircraft all day.

Leave them sitting at the spawning point, helpless as I land my C-47 and unload my Paras Right by the map room.  If they want to try and stop me, they have to take off from a field with fuel and ammo, and intercept me, or survive the flight to the field in contention, and strafe my Paras/C-47 before I fully unload it.

------------------
Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
 lkbrown1@tir.com
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!

[max621]

I like your ideas  

[214CaveJ]

Downtown you can already drop eggs on the spawn point and get kills.  I did the a day or 2 after the 26 was added.  We had hit bish HQ (they were in the south) and had a few eggs left over so we went to f1.  I was hitting the south fuel and saw a large formation of 26s gathering on the runway, so instead of dropping all me eggs on fuel I planted me last one on the runway.  A few minutes later 4 kills scrolled up the buffer as the egg hit and took 4 of them out =)

[dakota]

I tip my hat to probably the best strat
idea for the sim as it is evolving.
  It also sets the stage for development of ground vehicles.

Dakota

[Downtown]

The question is what do the HTC Guys think of this.

------------------
Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
 lkbrown1@tir.com
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!

[hitech]

 

1. Allow all buff guns to be on, all times.  If someone wants to park a B-17 on a runway and use it as an Ack Platform, SO BE IT.  No Gear Up and No Weight on Wheels, let them sit in their plane on the ground, and shoot from the top turret and sides and nose and tail.

Had that already.
We turned the gunners off because they can kill troops and in effect it makes a non killable ack station because you can pop back 2 secs after death.

 

2. Make it so that If I drop a bomb from alt, it will kill any planes I hit.

They all ready do.

 

3. Make it so if I bomb all the ammo bunkers at a field new spawning planes at that field don't get ammo, until that team flies in a C-47 and lands at that field to deliver Ammo/Fuel/Parts/Troops/Etc.. Etc.. or the Ammo Bunkers Rebuild.

Realy hate this idea.
The fact is you have effectivly closed the field when this happens. From previous history no one once to fly cargo on a regular bassis.

 

4. Make it so that if I bomb the fuel at a particular Airfield, and planes spawning on the runway at a particular field, do so with no fuel, until a C-47 arrives at that field delivering Fuel/Ammo/Parts/Troops/Etc... Etc... or that Fuel Bunkers Rebuild.

We have a form of this by limiting fuel. But there again no fuel would close the field. And again forcing cargo flights is a realy bad idea.

 

5. Make it so that If I bomb all the System Targets at a field (Hangar/Tower/Barraks) Then NO PLANES CAN SPAWN AT A FIELD.  SOmeone who clicks Fly or types .Fly will just be a Pilot who is Planeless at the spawning point.

Even under your system what good would this do? All 1 person would have to do is bomb the fuel only or ammo only and the field is closed.

Most of this can be summed up with 2 ideas.

First is ask yourself if you want to be flying cargo. The strat always sound cool until you ask ,is flying cargo  somthing you yourself would enjoy doing on a regular basis?

2nd is closing fields somthing you wish to have happen.

Right now when one country is trying hard to capture a field and another defending it some great fights evolve. Might not be totaly real to life, but when the field is succesfuly captured or defended it was a team effort that made it happen.
And also ask yourself are those field capturing fights fun ,because your ideas would elimitate them?


And downtown look at your post once , you are viewing things from a I want to be able to kill this, But not saying I want to fly cargo in.


BTW on the ablity to close fields, we are considering some method where the fields could be close for a very short time ,2-3 min range.

Just to open a window for a c47 to get in.


HiTech

[kjb]

HiTech, First let me thank you for this great sim you folks are putting together. And for allowing me to play here. This post is not meant as a flame butt more of just me trying to understand how this arena play is supposed to work.

 Now about the strat ideas. You ask if we would be willing to fly C-47s to supply bases. I would, i do in AWIII. You ask if the fights are fun at a base being taken over, well for some they are butt i don't think alot of people like getting vulched. Ya i know take off from a different field, well the base capture would go on unopposed then. Where's the fun in that? I know some people do like that, butt i doubt it's any kind of majority.  Having planes respawning after a 2 sec. death is not very realistic (butt then this isn't anything like RL). I mean the Japanese didn't worry too much about respawning planes or unlimited pile-its. If instead of not allowing ammo when bunkers are down just make it a reduced load out available. Same for fuel (which you already do). There have been numerous posts along these lines. Is there somewhere i can read what is to be expected by way of strat?  It would be nice to take a poll and ask every one these questions you ask Downtown about cargo and closing fields. I like em both. Maybe i'm just too used to the way Flight sim AW does things.  Butt i believe there is more to a flight sim than furballs over capped bases. Maybe when we get some ground vehicles things will change. Well there's my penny on the subject.

------------------
KJB
aka kjb  

[indian]

HiTech you have it set to reduce fuel when damaged why not reduce ammo leathality when ammo gets hit. How hard would it be to add drone c47 that resupply bases you could use them to resupply the bases that heavy attacks are launched from and the base being attacked can send sotries out to shoot them down, which if not resupplied the bases would loose some leathality due to lack of supplies kind of real life thing here. This would effect both the attackers and those being attacked.

------------------
Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
  Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in  files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.

indians Homepage

Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.

[dolomite]

 

BTW on the ablity to close fields, we are considering some method where the fields could be close for a very short time ,2-3 min range.

Just to open a window for a c47 to get in.

This is worth a try!

[Ping]

 Resupply at base: Eisenbahnnetz  

 Put this strat in and I'm signing up for sure.
 No need to fly supplies in if we have a railway network supplying all the bases.
 No need to fly C47 supply drops if we have rail doin that job for us, and then truck convoys. AI will be acceptable for these roles...I Allow it  
 HT...There are many of us out there tired of the same old, same old, of strictly A/A combat. I am a LOUSY fighter pilot, but would love to be in on G/A missions.
 
 Thoughts from a Dweeb...Ping

[bloom25]

I like Indian's idea.  Why not have a small formation of c47's automatically take off from the factory complexes that continuously supply foward bases.  Destroying these could be set up kind of like bombing the ammo/fuel bunkers at a base.  We could also have a set of roads/rail lines that do the same thing for rear/major bases.  You could also make it an option to fly a c47 with supplies yourself to help rebuild time at a base.  I think this would be a lot of fun for those of us who fly c47's, and also for the fighter pilots that want to bomb ground targets etc.  IMO it could be used as a semi-realistic stat element.

I must say I really like AH, but some strategy elements can only add to this very fine game.

What do you think?

[214CaveJ]

HiTech if the bombers can't launch if all ammo bunkers are destroyed, then the "unkillable ack" problem goes away.  It falls into the same catagory of someone sitting on the runway and constantly dropping drunks from a gooney bird to prevent capture (which can still happen btw if barracks aren't killed and the vulch isn't tight enough).  I've been told plenty of times that ordinence was disabled at a field =)

[Toad]

What Downtown is requesting is the ability to close a field.

Right now, one guy in a buff flying at an altitude that makes him almost unreachable could hit all those targets in a few passes. Using the amazingly accurate bombsight, it's not that hard to get a "shack." If we implement Downtown's requests, this would eliminate all opposition at that field and capture would be relatively easy once the cap has taken care of any residual defending fighters.

The resupply by C-47 idea is highly unlikely. A C-47 is an easy target as we all realize. The odds of getting a "resupply" -47 into even a lightly capped "closed" field are essentially nil.

So, if we are going to allow closing of fields (and that's exactly what these suggestions would accomplish) then we are going to have to do some other things to playbalance.

The Buff bombsights are going to have to be degraded significantly and slanted more towards RL.

Solo buffs at 30K would probably have to be countered by more realistic performance of both the buffs and the fighters at that altitude. No more 90 degree bank turns in level flight in a B-17, guys. Fighters will easily and quickly climb above Buffs when starting co-alt at 25K.

Perhaps countries would have to move farther apart with a larger "no man's land" so that sneaking in a few troop-laden -47's becomes tougher. You would then have to fly in more troops to that field barracks before you could continue the conquest.

Playbalance is a delicate thing. Given the maps, bombsights and flight models we now have changing to a total "field closure" model would be a MAJOR change in playbalance.

It could be done but I'm wagering that in short order we'd be screaming for other changes.

Personally, I'd rather see work done on true STRATEGIC aspects before we go fooling with the tactical field capture procedure.

No, it presently isn't perfect in the micro view but it's working and requires teamwork, timing and a bit of luck to accomplish. Sounds pretty realistic in the macro view doesn't it?


[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 01-23-2000).]

[hitech]

Im realy curious TOAD and this isn't a flame in the least. But I keep hereing people say they want STRAT. Now you are saying REAL STRAT. Can a few of you give me your deffinition of strat? Please don't include a wish list with it, just an overall definition or examples.

HiTech

[Toad]

HT,

Strat, in my view, would be features that affect the battle from further up the chain than items at the the tactical level.

To me,field capture is a tactical maneuver that takes place on the front line. Knocking out the ack is a tactical move.

OTOH, strat items would degrade the enemies ability to wage the war at a higher level. Knocking out the "ack factory" would be an example of Strat.

(If memory serves, the post-WW2 bombing survey eventually decided that the most effective phase of the bombing campaign was the last phase against transportation assets. Thus, transportation may have been the most important "strat" target.)

Now I realize we already have both tactical and strategic aspects in this game.

The tactical is fairly well represented and includes the furballing and territorial capture that is a staple of this type of game no matter which brand/ACM server you fly on the most.

I'm just saying I'd like to see a bit more of the strategic aspect implemented. Those "other games" haven't really worked on that aspect and AH could trump them.

It might require larger game maps and other changes, such as altering rebuild times on factories or facilities. It would probably require many additions/changes.

HT, don't take this as criticism. I'd just like to see AH offer more than the others. I think deeper strategic considerations would offer more challenges to the buff guys and complicate country defense for the fighter guys. I also think it would necessitate greater cooperation between a country's players, a good thing IMHO. I'd love to see 4-6 plane buff formations driving deep into enemy territory and see 12 plane fighter groups rise to defend the homeland <G>.

OTOH, there is also the risk that if Strat is TOO IMPORTANT it could drive guys away. If you can knock out too much of a country's infrastructure too easily, people might just log.

As I mentioned, though, I believe playbalance is a delicate thing. I think you've done pretty well so far and I certainly don't envy your job <G>.

I agree with what you've said in this thread concerning tactical level field capture.

I guess I'm hoping we'll get some of the stuff that others have mentioned, like more and varied factories, alterable rebuild times (damage based), truck and train supply convoys, bridges to knock out and the like. There have been a lot of suggestions spit out in several threads that seem to be ideas worth trying to make this game a bit "deeper."

The trick will be making such targets worthwhile and meaningful to the overall war effort while not making them SO important that playbalance suffers. It still needs to remain a game that you can log into and get into some exciting action in 30 minutes or so; not everyone has a few hours a night to spend executing a strategic campaign.

Alternatively, perhaps another tactical level, such as slowly advancing, computer operated infantry assets that take ground unless air assets attack/rout it would help differentiate AH from its competitors.

Bottom line, Strat to me would be features that allow a country to degrade another country's overall ability to wage war. Transportation, manufacturing, raw materials, etc., would be Strat targets. I'd simply like to see more of such targets, with more varied results on the war effort than what we have now.

Didn't say it would be easy, and I'm prepared to wait <G>. You guys are doing pretty well, I think.

Best Regards,
Toad