Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.

[Ack-Ack]

If the bombers are up to full speed, by the time you roll back over for pass #2 you are starting to fall into more of a 45 degree dive, less than ideal, and certainly you are getting into more of a six chase by the 3rd pass, and you are assuming a kill is achieved on every single pass.

Incorrect if you do the attack correctly. 


ack-ack

[BaldEagl]

If the bombers are up to full speed, by the time you roll back over for pass #2 you are starting to fall into more of a 45 degree dive, less than ideal, and certainly you are getting into more of a six chase by the 3rd pass, and you are assuming a kill is achieved on every single pass.

Nope.  You climb almost vertical so that, as I said in the first post, when you roll it over at the top you are once again sitting directly over the formation.  Due to this starting position and taking the buffs speed into consideration the dive angle is ~60 degrees on all three passes.  The only guns that ever get a shot at you are the uppers and they are difficult to track with as you cross directly over them headed to the canopy or the wing root.

[CAP1]

"""""If the bombers are up to full speed, by the time you roll back over for pass #2 you are starting to fall into more of a 45 degree dive, less than ideal, and certainly you are getting into more of a six chase by the 3rd pass, and you are assuming a kill is achieved on every single pass.""""""

 if i have time to set them up, it turns into a fun fight. i sometimes have trouble regaining a good attack position, but i can do it. it just takes SERIOUS patience.

[Dadsguns]

He just wants to have the same Guns and Cloaking ability as wonder-womans jet so he can take out those pesky evil bombers,,,

[999000]

Don't listen to all these great fighter pilots!!!!!!!!!!!! us bomber piltos are doomed!..Best advice for a fighter pilot attacking a bomber formation is to grab the right plane first ..like a SPD ...then ever so slowly line up on the "DEAD" six ..get within 200 before shooting because you don't want to miss or waste your ammo.......
<S> 999000

[dunnrite]

Don't listen to all these great fighter pilots!!!!!!!!!!!! us bomber piltos are doomed!..Best advice for a fighter pilot attacking a bomber formation is to grab the right plane first ..like a SPD ...then ever so slowly line up on the "DEAD" six ..get within 200 before shooting because you don't want to miss or waste your ammo.......
<S> 999000

Thats the man to listen to 

[mtnman]

An attack like this can be carried out for a long time if needed, and is quite tough to defend against.  I generally need 3 passes to kill a formation, about 10% of the time it takes four passes.  

Granted, I started out way above these buffs, but you'll notice I chopped throttle and maintained reduced throttle for the first pass.  I normally wouldn't do that.  My attack is also very casual here since I had plenty of E- I drop much further below the group than normal, and take my sweet time coming around for pass two and three..  I do use the this same tactic for most of my buff-killing, but seldom with that much of a starting alt advantage.  This is against Lancs, but the tactic works against any bomber.  It's toughest against B26's.

http://www.mediafire.com/?lhzcchded2c

I'm a furballer, so should probably feel differently, but IMO the bombers are too "weak".  I'd rather see formations of 4 - 8,  rather than any reduction in their defenses.  If they get our hangers, BRAVO! they deserve it.  Their tactics beat ours...  

I do think the bomb-aiming is too easy though, and dislike the dive-bombing heavies, but have no qualms against the guns.

I don't attack them often from poor positions, but when I do I might die.  That's OK, I deserve to die then.  When I use decent tactics I seldom have any problems.

Patience in setting up an attack, or foresight in making sure you're in position to defend your field is rewarded.  So is patience on the part of the bomber pilot, in climbing to a defensible altitude.  Lack of patience/use of poor tactics on the fighter pilot's part results in a dead fighter pilot.  Lack of patience/use of poor tactics on the part of the bomber results in a dead bomber pilot.  

Sounds fair to me.

MtnMan

[Steve]

Hunting buffs is a tricky thing in many planes/circumstances. I don't know that there needs to be a major change though. I routinely attack buffs from a high 6 position and kill one or two per pass without taking any real damage. From the top, the buff has no chance at all. No offense to those who disagree but I'm doing this in a pony, a cannon bird would be even more effective.  

OTOH, the OP is right that it takes time to set up these attacks and the short distances between bases means that it's not always practical.

Some ideas I've had:

Have buffs show on dar farther out.

Have buffs show on dar as a different color than other radar cons. They have a bigger radar signature, is this unrealistic?(historically speaking)

Link the drone guns by position. In other words, if the gunner is in the tail position, only the tail guns of all three planes would fire.

Reduce bomber accuracy as related to bomber speed.

Thoughts?

[CAP1]

Don't listen to all these great fighter pilots!!!!!!!!!!!! us bomber piltos are doomed!..Best advice for a fighter pilot attacking a bomber formation is to grab the right plane first ..like a SPD ...then ever so slowly line up on the "DEAD" six ..get within 200 before shooting because you don't want to miss or waste your ammo.......
<S> 999000

actually, i have troule hitting them then. i like the low six. bigger,....eerr.....i mean harder yet for me to hit em there

[Cthulhu]

Nope.  You climb almost vertical so that, as I said in the first post, when you roll it over at the top you are once again sitting directly over the formation.  Due to this starting position and taking the buffs speed into consideration the dive angle is ~60 degrees on all three passes.  The only guns that ever get a shot at you are the uppers and they are difficult to track with as you cross directly over them headed to the canopy or the wing root.

Exactly. I do this all the time and I'm usually good for at least two of the three buffs. Depends on the buff driver. The smart ones throw you a curve by pulling up when you're almost within range. Then it becomes a crap shoot.

"Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes he gets you", ain't that right Triple-9?

Of course, afterwards I usually end up gliding home , but that's just part of the job.

[Flatbar]

Haven't read the entire thread but how about just upping the hardness of plane and vehicle hangers to 8,000 pounds and 2,000 pounds for ords and troops. I'm of the opinion that knocking down bases and ending a fight should be made a bit tougher.

[BnZ]

Hunting buffs is a tricky thing in many planes/circumstances. I don't know that there needs to be a major change though. I routinely attack buffs from a high 6 position and kill one or two per pass without taking any real damage. From the top, the buff has no chance at all. No offense to those who disagree but I'm doing this in a pony, a cannon bird would be even more effective.  

OTOH, the OP is right that it takes time to set up these attacks and the short distances between bases means that it's not always practical.

Some ideas I've had:

Have buffs show on dar farther out.

Have buffs show on dar as a different color than other radar cons. They have a bigger radar signature, is this unrealistic?(historically speaking)

Don't know about that, but ever see pictures of the contrails they made at high altitude....those things forming for several hundred miles over your territory might constitute a clue.   Good idea Steve.

Link the drone guns by position. In other words, if the gunner is in the tail position, only the tail guns of all three planes would fire.

That is what I've been advocating. It seems logical that if you had no formation, wouldn't really matter if the buff pilot destroyed a lone fighter, his sortie would likely be over after being attacked anyway.  But I think the ability to concentrate six 50 calibers effective to ranges of 1000 yards is a perfectly fair defense, and if the fighter destroys one of his bombers while being destroyed, the bomber pilot still has two more.

Reduce bomber accuracy as related to bomber speed.

Thoughts?

I don't know about that, although certainly pickle-barrel bombing is a heckuva lot easier in AHII than in reality. One poster was worried that if any of my ideas were implemented, bombers would all go to 20+K. Well I say that SURELY this would reduce their accuracy in hitting such targets as an airfield. Plus, if a guy in a Ta-152 could climb to 30K with a reasonable expectation of meeting 25K buffs escorted by 30K Jugs, this would IMO constitute a healthy change in the "all down in the weeds, all the time" MA.

And just in case I haven't mentioned it in the last hour or so, give the buffers some meaningful strat targets in each country's hinterland to hit!

[Furball]

They could limit bombers to their historical roles.  Rough example of what i am thinking: -

4 engined heavies
Bombs do not drop in a dive, bomb sight does not calibrate below, say, 8,000 feet (yes i know low level raids like ploesti happened, but most were from alt), bombs will not drop if vertical speed is more than 100 feet per minute.

2 engined medium bombers
Bomb site will calibrate at any alt, bombs will not drop if vert speed is more than 100 feet per min

Dive bombers
Can calibrate/drop whenever

Would also see some of the current hangar queens used i think.

[Spikes]

It's easy to kill buff formations. Just need some good tactical planning. You say that day bombing raids were costly against the US, but do you think the German fighters came up on the B17 and B24's tail at 250mph? No. They would come in with good tactical planning. Get to the buff's high 2 or 10, and dive in with a lead angle so you sweep just barely out of his tail gun's range.

[splitatom]

i love hoing bombers because there pilots are always at the back of the plane not the front and if you hit the cotpit it is a one shot kill