109 gunnery

[Anaxogoras]

not intended as a hijack......

i just flew the G2 in fso tonight. thankfully, there was no air opposition, as i've only flown the 109 once or twice.

 how the HE#$ do you guys see out of the dam thing?? i could NOT find a view setup to see easily in this plane?

I use good SA to know where the bandits are even when they're obstructed by canopy bracing.  Gives you a little more respect for those who are successful in the 109, doesn't it?

[CAP1]

I use good SA to know where the bandits are even when they're obstructed by canopy bracing.  Gives you a little more respect for those who are successful in the 109, doesn't it?

although i respect anyone that is successful in any aircraft(as long as they're not hotards), yes, it does.
 as we were RTB'ing, i was asking the guys how the hell they see through these things

[FLOTSOM]

although i respect anyone that is successful in any aircraft(as long as they're not hotards), yes, it does.
 as we were RTB'ing, i was asking the guys how the hell they see through these things

the views in any of the ribbed canopy air craft in A.H. is just trash. A.H. fails to realize that with a tiny turn or slide of the head the pilot could easily see around the braces.

its common sense, imagine driving your car but not being able to see around the windshield or window bracing? would leave an awful lot of guessing while driving don't you think?

to preempt the dumb retorts that would inevitably follow this type of statement of fact regarding A.H., if your in a turn fight, furball or being ganged and trying to keep your eyes on the enemy plane(s), the ground, trees, other in bound enemy ect, things (big things) can unrealistically disappear behind these braces. to slide views back and forth by using arrow keys while in tight turns and evasive maneuvering is unreasonably time consuming, unrealistic and detrimental to the pilot attempting to consentrate on seeing around the one post that always seem to align itself in a fashion that hides the enemy. A.H. view setups do not take into consideration the amazing flexibility of the human head and neck nor the ability to just move your eyes. this is a miserable hassle at times, and one i am certain that has caused the demise of many a cartoon air plane.

but........ i have found sort of a happy medium kinda. instead of running your views closer to the window pull them back away from it. move your view backwards and away from the braces makes them thinner and less obtrusive, but the better part of this is learning to use these obstructions to your advantage. how???? you might say, well ill tell you.

learn to use these braces as sighting and firing markers!!!! when an enemy plane is moving across your side view heading towards your nose or into your turn, use the braces as sights. it all works the same as looking forward to gage your shot. estimate the speed and angle of the enemy as it passes in front of the posts, gage the distance and deflection needed then tap the trigger.

the forward diagonal views are the easiest to become accustom to using, but the side views can be used as well with just a little patience and willingness to learn.

i believe this is a good strategy and that those who fly the German rides most proficiently tend to use this tactic. i believe this because i have watched pilots such as AGENT360 fire shots while their target was still out to their side and score hits without turning the nose of his plane to get a targeting view. now either every one of these occasions was blind B.S. luck or he is tracking, targeting and leading his enemy by looking out the side window. I could be wrong, but i have tried this with some limited (face it i just cant shoot straight) success.

well if it helps cool if not, what did it cost you to try it?

<SALUTE>

FLOTSOM

[Agent360]

FLOTSOM, you are correct about how I track for shots. I have the pilot set all the way back and all my views set zoomed out as far as they will go except for the rear left/right. I have these zoomed in just enough to see the side of the tail.

For the cross deflection shots I will roll the nose early and be waiting for the target to fly a path that will cross my guns. I fire at about the outside edge of the forward side canopy bar...the second bar that is closes to the pilot. I use the forward side window pane as a general sight area making the target pass through this window. If the shot will be very close as the plane comes into view on the edge of my monitor I fire. If farther out I fire when the target is in the forward side window pane.

I also often roll over so the target is under me. I line up the lift vector and time the shot blind as he comes under and up past the guns. This is much more difficult but with practice and the right lift vector its an easy shot. One that is unexpected.

[FLOTSOM]

FLOTSOM, you are correct about how I track for shots. I have the pilot set all the way back and all my views set zoomed out as far as they will go except for the rear left/right. I have these zoomed in just enough to see the side of the tail.

For the cross deflection shots I will roll the nose early and be waiting for the target to fly a path that will cross my guns. I fire at about the outside edge of the forward side canopy bar...the second bar that is closes to the pilot. I use the forward side window pane as a general sight area making the target pass through this window. If the shot will be very close as the plane comes into view on the edge of my monitor I fire. If farther out I fire when the target is in the forward side window pane.

I also often roll over so the target is under me. I line up the lift vector and time the shot blind as he comes under and up past the guns. This is much more difficult but with practice and the right lift vector its an easy shot. One that is unexpected.

and this is why when i engage 109's i try to always stay below the angle of the leading edge of the wing on my side. if i dip under the usually these shots pass over my canopy. but not always, i have experienced more than one pilot wound in attempting to develop the counter move.

did i mention that on more than one occasion i was Agents victim in this side shot? well

<SALUTE> Agent360

[CAP1]

FLOTSOM, you are correct about how I track for shots. I have the pilot set all the way back and all my views set zoomed out as far as they will go except for the rear left/right. I have these zoomed in just enough to see the side of the tail.

For the cross deflection shots I will roll the nose early and be waiting for the target to fly a path that will cross my guns. I fire at about the outside edge of the forward side canopy bar...the second bar that is closes to the pilot. I use the forward side window pane as a general sight area making the target pass through this window. If the shot will be very close as the plane comes into view on the edge of my monitor I fire. If farther out I fire when the target is in the forward side window pane.

I also often roll over so the target is under me. I line up the lift vector and time the shot blind as he comes under and up past the guns. This is much more difficult but with practice and the right lift vector its an easy shot. One that is unexpected.

flotsom, and agent.....

NOW THIS IS THE KIND OF ADVICE THAT WE ALL LOOK FOR!!
think i'm gonna up a 109 in the ta, and practice what you guys are talkin about.

<<S>>

[Anaxogoras]

flotsom, and agent.....

NOW THIS IS THE KIND OF ADVICE THAT WE ALL LOOK FOR!!
think i'm gonna up a 109 in the ta, and practice what you guys are talkin about.

<<S>>

Keep in mind that advice is specific to tater armed 109s.   With the 20mm cannon you need different tactics to set up the kill shot.

[CAP1]

Keep in mind that advice is specific to tater armed 109s.   With the 20mm cannon you need different tactics to set up the kill shot.

very good point.....but at least those of us new to the 109 will have something to go on

[Tr1gg22]

I had a great virtual 109 pilot tell me to set all guns to 150 on the 109k-4. His name was Creaton   Do not no were he went but he was real good IMHO... Wooped me bad enough I have tried setting my melons out to 600 a few times to make my deflection less,but as Agent stated it really threw me off  up close It is amazing how high those melons go when set at 600 at 200 out they fly way over ur target..Try it sometime I have good luck at the 150 mark I think its the 150 mark the lowest u can go anyhow And great post

[jerkins]

Check out this thread, some helpful stuff on aiming the 30mm.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,238513.0.html

[Agent360]

Keep in mind that advice is specific to tater armed 109s.   With the 20mm cannon you need different tactics to set up the kill shot.

Well I was talking about 30mm but you dont need different "tactics" to set up the kill shot. I fly exactly the same way in the 109f4. I just fire more rounds with 20mm's because you need a few more rounds to make the kill.

[Anaxogoras]

Sure you do.   In the 109F-4 you don't make it a point to wait for the target to cross the gunsite in order to put a snap shot on it.  Naturally, you take snap shots if you have them, but it's preferable to set up a high % tracking shot.

For example, in a 20mm armed 109, I'm diving on a spitfire that's in a defensive break turn.  I have my throttle reduced, and I spiral down onto the target in a slight lag pursuit, then pull lead for (hopefully) a good burst.  The same attack in the 109K-4 I would do differently.  Instead of a lag pursuit, I roll into a fairly extreme lead pursuit so that once I close the distance, I level my wings a bit to watch the bandit in the side panels of the canopy.  Then I use elevator to line up a tater shot as he crosses the gunsite.  It doesn't always go as planned, but lots and lots of my kills in the 109K-4 are along those lines.

I also think that the range from which you can score kills in a 20mm armed 109 makes it a totally different ball game.   I know you've posted pics of 400 yard deflection shots with the 30mm, but even expert tater marksmen like yourself can't make those shots routinely, whereas with the 20mm cannon the merely competent can.

[pervert]

Setting guns on 30mm to 150 or 200 would make sense as its a single shot with huge drop I have noticed since reading agents thread where I'm aiming at and although this works for me its only cos I'm used to it. If you think about it the drop of the 30mm is all gravity so unless you flying straight and level and your target is also straight and level having it hit where the pipper is is pretty much useless. If your flying down after a target at say 600 the convergence settings will make you miss because gravity is no longer an issue you'd have to aim below the plane to compansate same with flying up after a target, or even rolling you plane for a shot will screw up the aim. Hmmm I'm gonna make a gunsight for this 

[Agent360]

In case any of you are interested this is the gunsight I use. I made it.



Right click and save. Put is in your aces high install directory in the "sights" folder.

The yellow ticks marks are for calculating bullet drop when taking dead six shots. They also work for moderate deflection shots.

The big red circle helps alot when taking high deflection crossing shots. I find it easier to see the big circle AND the target together when rolling for a snap shot. Also the big circle is helpful in that at about d200 the plane center fills the circle with a little wing on each side.

It is easier for me to pay attentions to the big circle rather than the small dot.

[GhostBer]

I am concerned about the convergance that i always set my guns to.  I usually set all my planes (F4U, F6F, P-38, P-51) to about D600.  Is this too far??  Is this maybe why i am missing a lot of kills.  I usually get within 800 before i start shooting and then move closer (To within D600-D400) It is usually effective but i want to get better. How should i be setting this up??