Author Topic: Wow....  (Read 3859 times)

Offline zuii

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Re: Wow....
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2008, 06:10:32 PM »
I think this may be turning into an Argument.

zuii
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Offline Rino

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Re: Wow....
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2008, 06:15:34 PM »
     Not really a surprise, after seeing the opening post  :D
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Wow....
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2008, 06:15:47 PM »
I think this may be turning into an Argument.

zuii

Tactless posts have a tendency to do that. ;)
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Offline toonces3

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Re: Wow....
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2008, 06:19:49 PM »
The problem with this game is that you pretty much have to interact with other people.
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Offline Steve

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Re: Wow....
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2008, 06:23:02 PM »
well, I'm not arguing. I'm just looking for clarification before I form an opinion and respond.
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Offline stodd

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Re: Wow....
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2008, 06:29:24 PM »
Everyone (including me) puts down BnZ'ers because it takes no skill, well okay... But what if you really like to BnZ? What if you really like to actually get kills because you're still learning the ACM for TnB?
The start of an argument right there.
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Offline Banshee7

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Offline Becinhu

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Re: Wow....
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2008, 06:47:14 PM »
This isn't an arguement..it's abuse.
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Offline BnZ

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Re: Wow....
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2008, 06:49:45 PM »
1. Your K/D ratio in the P-51D last tour was not earned attempting to engage co-e Spits in turn fights. Whether it came mostly from application of E-fighting, picking, buff-hunting, or deliberately isolating and then running down and shooting A/C that the Pony can more or less match agility with, I do not know. Note, I have nothing against you, all of these methods constitute correct ways to use your airplane. I am only saying your relative success indicates what you were NOT doing with your Mustang.

2. 1v1 ACM problems, in order of easiest to most difficult, assuming more or less equal pilot skill.

Level One- Successfully prosecuting a turning engagement with an opponent in a similar or worse turning machine. Most people can learn how to do this consistently against typical MAers from a couple dozen hours in the TA/DA.

Level Two- Successfully prosecuting an E-fight against a decidedly more maneuverable opponent. Now, excepting the occasions where someone gets greedy and bites on a rope, this is an order of magnitude more difficult, in no small part because of greater gunnery challenges. You will not have the opportunity to get on an opponent's six and hammer away for a protracted period of time, as you will when you gain the upper hand in with a t'n'b machine.

Level Three- Overshoot fighting, in which the opponent's craft holds all the cards and you must basically entice him into making a mistake. Overshoots are not necessarily that difficult to come by in all circumstances, but the fact that you will likely get only 1 shot makes insane gunnery and prediction of exactly where your opponent will be crucial.

Of course, the typical MA fight is anything but 1v1, thus generalizations are hard to make. It would have to be admitted that faster planes toward the "BnZ" end of the spectrum are easier in the sense that it is possible to disengage from situations gone sour more often, but are not necessarily easier to get lots of kills in.




Offline scot12b

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Re: Wow....
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2008, 06:52:51 PM »
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 06:55:17 PM by scot12b »

Offline Steve

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Re: Wow....
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2008, 06:58:00 PM »
1. Your K/D ratio in the P-51D last tour was not earned attempting to engage co-e Spits in turn fights. Whether it came mostly from application of E-fighting, picking, buff-hunting, or deliberately isolating and then running down and shooting A/C that the Pony can more or less match agility with, I do not know. Note, I have nothing against you, all of these methods constitute correct ways to use your airplane. I am only saying your relative success indicates what you were NOT doing with your Mustang.

2. 1v1 ACM problems, in order of easiest to most difficult, assuming more or less equal pilot skill.

Level One- Successfully prosecuting a turning engagement with an opponent in a similar or worse turning machine. Most people can learn how to do this consistently against typical MAers from a couple dozen hours in the TA/DA.

Level Two- Successfully prosecuting an E-fight against a decidedly more maneuverable opponent. Now, excepting the occasions where someone gets greedy and bites on a rope, this is an order of magnitude more difficult, in no small part because of greater gunnery challenges. You will not have the opportunity to get on an opponent's six and hammer away for a protracted period of time, as you will when you gain the upper hand in with a t'n'b machine.

Level Three- Overshoot fighting, in which the opponent's craft holds all the cards and you must basically entice him into making a mistake. Overshoots are not necessarily that difficult to come by in all circumstances, but the fact that you will likely get only 1 shot makes insane gunnery and prediction of exactly where your opponent will be crucial.

Of course, the typical MA fight is anything but 1v1, thus generalizations are hard to make. It would have to be admitted that faster planes toward the "BnZ" end of the spectrum are easier in the sense that it is possible to disengage from situations gone sour more often, but are not necessarily easier to get lots of kills in.





I don't know that I agree with your assessment as to the levels... not that I disagree either.  FWIW. I'll engage a Co-E spit any time.  Doesn't mean I always win but  I'll Co E fight any plane.

Now, what does all your typing have to do with what 1+44 said about BnZ requiring no skills. Perhaps I'm being especially obtuse but I don't see the connection.
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Offline zuii

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Re: Wow....
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2008, 07:09:03 PM »
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

i was wondering how long it would take for someone to get the reference. :)


zuii
39th FS "Cobra in the Clouds"

Empress Zhang: "I love cannons"
(it was not all fun and games inside the forbidden city)

Offline Gixer

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Re: Wow....
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2008, 07:09:09 PM »
No, actually I don't know what you mean other than what you said. If you meant something other than BnZ takes no skill, tell me what exactly you meant.

I wouldn't say it takes no skill, but it certainly the method of least skill and absolute minimum risk. And in general is most successful in the MA when used against cons already engaged. In that scenario it equals no skill.


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Offline BnZ

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Re: Wow....
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2008, 07:10:47 PM »
I don't know that I agree with your assessment as to the levels... not that I disagree either.  FWIW. I'll engage a Co-E spit any time.  Doesn't mean I always win but  I'll Co E fight any plane.

In a true Co-E fight, both of you starting above corner speed, you are an exceptional pilot (which more than anyone cares to admit consists of being an excellent gunner) who stands a good chance of getting a killing blow in before the speed bleeds down enough for the Spit to hold all the cards.

Also, there are many situations where one may be co-alt but NOT necessarily Co-E, because of the speed the Pony carries in level flight, and the questionable merging practices of many newb Spit drivers can only the E gap.. I'm thinking of one of the last Pony v C-Hog clips you posted here...

In any case, are you telling me you won't extend if the extending option is open and the situation has obviously gone completely sour?

Now, what does all your typing have to do with what 1+44 said about BnZ requiring no skills. Perhaps I'm being especially obtuse but I don't see the connection.

My point was that flying a "bnz" plane is not dead easy compared to low altitude furballing. Especially in terms of kills/time and kills/sortie as opposed to pure k/d ratio. I believe someone posted that the N1K currently has the highest k/d among the 4 most popular, and that makes sense, since it turns well, handles well, has lots of guns, and lots of ammo. These two traits are apparently what makes a plane "easy" for the vast majority of players, not speed or climb rate.