Frustration factors in Aces High...

[GrinBird]

There are from my point of view two kinds of frustration factors in AcesHigh.
The first kind of frustrations is caused by the difficulty of the game.. the hard flightmodels (which I like) and the extremely good opponents (who I like even more
Thats what you can call a challenge you get frustrated but if you fight it and keeps going you will do better, and thats a great satifaction. That will make you go on even if you get angry now and then, and even if you have to pay 30$ pr month.
The other kind of frustrations are caused by stupid rules in the game, and cant be fought in any way, even if you try. Its the kind of frustrations that will make you exit your game in anger and maybe some day you have had enuf and uninstall AcesHigh in anger.
The first of the two things that can do that to me is the rule that means that you cant get a kill if you have bailed out or are dead. Its a stupid rule and I cant see any purpose with it at all.
Very often I experience that I shoot the wings of a B17 near my Base But on his way down he get a hit on me, so I have to bail out.. but if I bail out b4 he does, then he is the only one to get the kill, even if I can walk up to tower and tell I killed that guy. -Thats a dumdumdumdum rule. Please take it serious guys and fix it ASAP. Even if a pilot in real war should get killed after his kill his mate would report it and put it on his record. And Btw sometimes another guy from your team gets the kill even if he hasnt hit the plane at all, in real war that would be outrageous!
The other thing that can make me exit the game in anger is the "chute-killing". Some guys kill chutes for fun even if they get nothing out of it - besides wasting ammo offcourse Some ppl are even ready to waste valuable altitude to get down and kill you in chute. In real war I dont think that coldblooded murder of that kind would be rewarded, I think an allied pilot would be grounded for it! I accidently killed a guy in chute today for the first time.. he bailed out while I was filling his plane with 20mms... The guy was angry, but I hope he believed me. If I had been grounded eg. an hour because of it I would have thought it was fair even if it was accidental...

The rules in AcesHigh determines the behavior of the players in the Arenas. I would like me and the others to be friendly and polite to each others but it can be quite difficult after you have been shot down in chute, or you have lost a couple of kills because you had to bail out before the other guys bailed out.



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GrinBird

[214CaveJ]

I agree whole-heartedly on the "last man standing" issue.  Plus it's buggy as hell to boot.  There have been times when I'm flying a buff that I take the wing off an attacking fighter at the same time he takes one of me wings off.  He bails first, I get the kill riding the wingless monstronsity down to a lower alt before bailing.  Then when I bail out I see him get the kill.  This has happened alot.
On the other hand, the times that I bailout first, he gets the kill.  Then I'm watching his burning aircraft fall and see him bail out.  BUT no kill for me.  What's up with that???  I've never gotten a kill in this situation if I've been the first to bail.

[Pongo]

I never knew that you could be awarded a kill after bailing. I always thought that last person to bail got the kill. Happend to me last night though, got a B26 and was waiting for him to bail so I could...(wing gone) he bailed I got kill, waited a few secs I bailed he got kill. Usually cooditated 50s on the buff kill you as you bail anyway so I guess thats why I never observed this befor.

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Pongo
Musketeer Escadrille

[GrinBird]

I still think there is no proper reason not to get the kill after you are dead. I dont understand why the rules are made like they are, it seems difficult to make it work right and we could easily do without it.
Once again: Two guys downs or kills each other should both get the kill.
Another thing: I dont like the maneuver kill rule either. It seems to be buggy and can cause that the wrong person get the kill. The Last person to hit the guy should get the kill, if no hits no kill, - only a brief funeral for the guy who crashes his plane without having had any hits

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GrinBird

[Robert]

i tell you something else that is very flustraiting as well. a 3 front war and 2 countries gang up on another country.
i'll pay my $ for the game but if i have to take of from porked field and continually get vulched over and over taking off from the only 2 field left when i log on then i think AH is not for me. some ppl say change countries but that is not the thing to do. why you say ! then everyone would log on and just go to the country that has the largest amount of #. I think im ready for a 2 sided war altogether !

[Minotaur]

 

Originally posted by GrinBird:
I still think there is no proper reason not to get the kill after you are dead. I dont understand why the rules are made like they are, it seems difficult to make it work right and we could easily do without it.
Once again: Two guys downs or kills each other should both get the kill.
Another thing: I dont like the maneuver kill rule either. It seems to be buggy and can cause that the wrong person get the kill. The Last person to hit the guy should get the kill, if no hits no kill, - only a brief funeral for the guy who crashes his plane without having had any hits  

HTC;

This is not just a "squeaking and Moaning" issue.  This is a "Very Human" issue.  One that is a "Human's Fundumentally Basic Need to Fit into a Society and Not Consider Themselves an Outcast of that Society".  IMO, one that is vital to the greater success of your game.

Personaly, I see little problem with both being killed, but only one getting the credit for scoring purposes.  

I do have a problem with the "System:" which announces to the whole community who killed who.  This affects each player involved in the confrontation differently, and in a VERY MAJOR WAY.

IE: The system says "XXXXX just killed YYYYY".  It does not say "XXXXX and YYYYY just killed each other".
 
SHAME and GLORY
One person gets praise, one person gets chastisement.  When, in effect, they both accomplished the same exact task.  IMO, this is the issue that has to be dealt with.

• Should one person bail first, but remain in the game.  They should get the kill message when the other person bails.  Regardless of who bailed first or the time between.
• For HO kills where both are killed.  The player whos FE reports the kill first, should not always get the kill message.  Following my logic from the above example, both should recieve a kill message.
• It might also be nice if you shoot down a gunned BUFF, you would get the kill message for each player in the BUFF.

Thanks!  

Mino

[Minotaur]

       

Originally posted by The Minotaur:

SHAME and GLORY
One person gets praise, one person gets chastisement.  When, in effect, they both accomplished the same exact task.  IMO, this is the issue that has to be dealt with.

After re-reading this post some more ideas came to my mind, but I did not want to create a "Newspaper" that would only be ignored.          

The issues of SHAME and GLORY are complex.  As silly as it might seem, I spend lots of time thinking about those issues.  This ussually takes the form of "Why the heck am I so HACKED OFF, it is only a GAME".        

I have a suggestion that I feel would help, but would require changing the way the "System:" displays "Kill Messages".  

To my understanding there are two ways the "System:" can display messages.

• Globally
• Privately

My idea bases itself upon these two methods and I can forsee two circumstance where it could be utilized.

Player X just shotdown Player Y

• Global: X kill #3
• Private to X: Killed Y

Player X and Player Y just shot each other down

• Global: X kill #3
• Global: Y kill #1
• Private to X: Killed Y
• Private to Y: Killed X

Or from the above example, if you wanted, you could reserve "Global Messages" for how the kill was scored.  

Player X and Player Y just shot each other down

• Global: X kill #3
• Private to X: Killed Y
• Private to Y: Killed X

IMO this would emphasize the positive part of the game, the GLORY.  It would also de-emphasize the negative part, the SHAME.

Thanks!          

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-05-2000).]

[Pongo]

Mino
I agree totaly with you .
I would add that Assists should be shown. maybe just on country channel. Why force a guy to pipe in Assist after only he gets told?
And
The game has to either give a kill when the shooters FE indicates a dead enemy or lessen the damage effect on the hit plane so that the attack will continue.
eg I see right wing or entire tail dissapear from enemy.
I dont get awarded the kill till collision with the ground, bail or plane explodes.
But the person that disables the enemy certainly has the kill?
when the right wing was gone, how many times would they be wrong in awarding the kill, only when another plane chased the guy to the deck trying to get the kill. Of enemy successfully ditches plane, but guess what it is still dead...
summary
   Either get the FE representation of the enemys state in line with actual state or award kill to me when I see his wing come off. Hint the int officer would award a kill to me if my gun cammera showed his wing coming off. Spiff who chased the kill down peppering it would be chastised.
also
The name of chute killers should also be announced, I know it happend in combat from all sides, but if people want to do it why cant the comunity know who they are?



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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Minotaur]

Pongo;

Thanks for your reply.

I am OK with the way assist messages are currently handled.  They use the Private system channel.  

Your suggestions might work very well in conjunction with what I have suggested.  Perhaps in this fashion.  

• Global system messages: "X kill #3".  
• Team system messages: "Y Kill on Z"
• Team system messages: "Y Assist on Z.

This might actually have a very positive effect on team teamwork.

Additionally, the question of "Who" actually got the kill is something that I am sure HTC will refine.  This is an intregal part of plane damage and who did the damage.  This is a game issue, I am focussing on human issues.

My main thrust into this matter would be to eliminate components of the game that are negative, and increase components that are positive.  Pertaining only to game frustration, not game mechanics.

My concern is that negative components drive away new players, and decrease my own enjoyment as a moderately experienced player.  I would like to shy away from any "System:" messages that provide any form of chastisement.

Example:

To train a dog you can use "Tasty Treats", a form of "Positive Re-enforcement".  The dog likes them and will perform freely to get them.  Or you can beat the dog, and demand peformance.  Either way the dog learns, but one way the dog is happy, the other not nearly as happy.  People work the same way.  

IMO the AH Global message system uses a combonation of both.  My concern is, what method has the lasting impression on the dog or the AH player.

BTW; don't try the chastisement option with your next pet killer whale.      

The game is the game.  At times it can be very brutal to ones EGO, especially for new players.  I am trying to devise and suggest methods of boosting EGO's, but not significantly changing what I consider to be a fine game.

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-05-2000).]

[Pyro]

The rules in AcesHigh determines the behavior of the players in the Arenas.
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I agree that some things need to be refined in how kills are awarded.  But on the flip, what you say above is very true and needs to be considered.  I think that one of benefits of not giving kills to dead participants is that it discourages suicide attacks.  Just something to keep in mind.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

"If it's stupid but works, it's not stupid."

[indian]

Pyro this dosent take into account mutual kills. Say one person dies a second before the other one guy gets kill the other nothing. Also need to address the death by ack issue have seen people fly in the ack to draw down a attacker and get kill because ack shot him down.

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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
  Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in  files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.

indians Homepage

Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.

[Minotaur]

Pyro;

Thanks for your reply.

Your point is when well taken.  I agree with you, if both are shot down, but one is killed (Simulated dead) then the one who survives gets the kill.  No matter what else happened.

However, I have seen instances where both are killed (Simulated dead) and the "System:" gives one with the kill and by reporting "x shotdown Y #3" on the global message channel.

Hopefully a system can be devised to maximize the good feeling of getting a kill, and to minimize the bad feeling of getting shot down. (LOL - again and again)

BTW, in my discussions I often say "Kill", this refers to "Being Shot down" or "Shooting down another plane".  Not to being "Killed", which refers to being simulatedly "Dead" in the game.

Thanks again!  

Mino

[Pongo]

Min
"Your point is when well taken. I agree with you, if both are shot down, but one is killed (Simulated dead) then the one who survives gets the kill. No matter what else happened."
I dissagree. What does one party getting killed have to do with awarding the kill....
Award the kill to the stiff....
That is what happend and the final result in these things is too dependent to the net...Two pilots perform the same way, then net tosses a coin to decide who was the hero and who was the lamer....
Award to both




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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[hitech]

Minotaur:
Thanks for the idea on kill messages. Implemented a version of your idea today.

HiTech

[Dago]

I agree with the idea of a kill being awarded even after you die.  I find it somewhat frustrating when I have done lethal damage to a guy, get killed somehow before he hits the ground, and I get now kill credit.  I have taken parts off a plane, and been bounced immediatly afterwards, killed and did not get credit for the kill that was moments away.

I understand the concern about suicide attacks, but I think they will not be common, and even less of concern then unawarded kills.

Dago