Just curious.

[BigPlay]

According to who?

JB Wray got two 262s in a Tempest.  Two 439 squadron Tiffie pilots shared a 262.  Nowotny went down to a Jug if memory serves.  Art Jeffrey was credited with a 163 in a P38.  Me thinks you should do a bit of digging before making claims like that.

Ben Drew, Bob Winks, Chuck Yeager and many more shot down 262's in P-51's. Nowotny really wasn't shot down he had an engine flame out and performend a split s right into the ground. A P-51 driver was nearest to him and his name I forgot. He did say that he didn't get a shot off on him.

[Guppy35]

Ben Drew, Bob Winks, Chuck Yeager and many more shot down 262's in P-51's. Nowotny really wasn't shot down he had an engine flame out and performend a split s right into the ground. A P-51 driver was nearest to him and his name I forgot. He did say that he didn't get a shot off on him.

No one is disagreeing that 51 drivers got jets.  The claim that only 51s and Spits got them was inaccurate.

[dtango]

Or is it?

We are taught otherwise in high school history class, but the country that destroyed most of the German army and airforce is the Soviet Union, not the USA.  The numbers are indisputable.  Moreover, German aircraft production peaked in 1944, right under the nose of Allied strategic bombing.

No, the Soviets destroyed the German Army.  The USA and Brits destroyed the German Air Force. 

You are right, the numbers are indisputable .  You need to look at the numbers again - all the numbers.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Rich46yo]

Or is it?

We are taught otherwise in high school history class, but the country that destroyed most of the German army and airforce is the Soviet Union, not the USA.  The numbers are indisputable.  Moreover, German aircraft production peaked in 1944, right under the nose of Allied strategic bombing.

I really dont want to hijack the thread, as fascinating a topic as it is. My comments were directed to a narrow scope, as in P-47 vs P-51.

Ive said many times the "real war" was fought in the east. Things start getting foggy however when you say the "real air war" was fought in the east.

Even foggier is the subject of Strategic bombing the German war machine in WW-ll. We will never know exactly how effective it was or to what extent it limited German production. For instance? What would it have been like if we didn't send bombers against their industrial and other high value targets? What is known is the huge $$ they had to spend on the defense from the Allied strategic air Juggernaut, and the huge cost in lives of airmen and air crews. By the end of it their cities were in smoking ruins and the Luftwaffe was smashed. But, all this for another thread. Ive said to much already.

[Guppy35]

Ben Drew, Bob Winks, Chuck Yeager and many more shot down 262's in P-51's. Nowotny really wasn't shot down he had an engine flame out and performend a split s right into the ground. A P-51 driver was nearest to him and his name I forgot. He did say that he didn't get a shot off on him.

And just to keep the Jug drivers involved.  Gunther Lutzow's 262 was shared by a pair of 365th FG P47s.  Another P47 driver with the same group was credited with a 262 as well.

[Anaxogoras]

No, the Soviets destroyed the German Army.  The USA and Brits destroyed the German Air Force. 

You are right, the numbers are indisputable .  You need to look at the numbers again - all the numbers.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

Your claim is that the USAAF and RAF shot down more German aircraft than the VVS?

[dtango]

Your claim is that the USAAF and RAF shot down more German aircraft than the VVS?

Here's a question - why am I the one having to defend my post ?  I'm not the one who claimed the VVS destroyed the Luftwaffe.



...But because I'm a nice guy I'll respond  :

Well the destruction of the Luftwaffe was more involved than just destruction of german aircraft but if you want to base it on aircraft shot down then yes the USAAF and RAF shot down more than the VVS.  And I wouldn't presume to claim anything .  The claims are losses from the Germans themselves as per the BA/MA RLM records.



It's too much trouble to show you the actual data but here's a breakdown for the above to consider:

• May-Dec 1940 are losses due to the RAF (Battle of France / Battle of Britain). 
• The Eastern Front can be said to have chewed the majority of the losses from Jul 41 - Jun 42. 
• From Jun 42 - Dec 42 on the Eastern Front accounted for roughly 48% of the losses while the MTO accounted for 52%. 
• It's not even a question in 1943 with the Eastern Front accounting for 32% of the losses while the other 68% were due to the RAF & USAAF in the MTO and ETO. 
• 1944 onward % of losses attributed to the USAAF and RAF is even more lopsided compared to the VVS.

--

It's not even worth digging up numbers for Jul 44 -Mar 45.  From the graph you don't even have to add up the numbers basis the %.  Visual inspection is enough to demonstrate the point considering the % breakdowns.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[BigPlay]

No one is disagreeing that 51 drivers got jets.  The claim that only 51s and Spits got them was inaccurate.

My point being that by wars end there were only a few squadrons equipped with the P-47's. Most were regulated to transportation disruption and related fighter sweeps of airfields..

 Little is known about a P-47 squadron that's sole purpose was to harass the civilians. All animals were shot, horses, dogs. Farmers were strafed in their fields civilians on the street were strafed. The planes were minus national markings as well.

[Anaxogoras]

Here's a question - why am I the one having to defend my post ?  I'm not the one who claimed the VVS destroyed the Luftwaffe.

Crap, so I did.   But I didn't ask you to defend it, I just asked you what your position was.

...But because I'm a nice guy I'll respond  :

Well the destruction of the Luftwaffe was more involved than just destruction of german aircraft but if you want to base it on aircraft shot down then yes the USAAF and RAF shot down more than the VVS.  And I wouldn't presume to claim anything .  The claims are losses from the Germans themselves as per the BA/MA RLM records.

(Image removed from quote.)

It's too much trouble to show you the actual data but here's a breakdown for the above to consider:

• May-Dec 1940 are losses due to the RAF (Battle of France / Battle of Britain). 
• The Eastern Front can be said to have chewed the majority of the losses from Jul 41 - Jun 42. 
• From Jun 42 - Dec 42 on the Eastern Front accounted for roughly 48% of the losses while the MTO accounted for 52%. 
• It's not even a question in 1943 with the Eastern Front accounting for 32% of the losses while the other 68% were due to the RAF & USAAF in the MTO and ETO. 
• 1944 onward % of losses attributed to the USAAF and RAF is even more lopsided compared to the VVS.

--

It's not even worth digging up numbers for Jul 44 -Mar 45.  From the graph you don't even have to add up the numbers basis the %.  Visual inspection is enough to demonstrate the point considering the % breakdowns.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

Your chart just shows losses.  It doesn't show anything about where the aircraft were lost.  But I'm inclined to believe you because you've been very knowledgeable about other stuff in the past.

[dtango]

My point being that by wars end there were only a few squadrons equipped with the P-47's. Most were regulated to transportation disruption and related fighter sweeps of airfields..

This may be true if you're looking at just the 8th AF.  But it's not when you consider the 9th, 12th, and 15th Air Forces.  

That's also not considering the disposition in the of the air war against Japan.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Stoliman]

BigPlay -

Source?

[dtango]

Your chart just shows losses.  It doesn't show anything about where the aircraft were lost.  But I'm inclined to believe you because you've been very knowledgeable about other stuff in the past.

Yes, but I broke down where the losses occured for you in my bullet points which comes from further details that chart was built from.  It was just too much trouble for me to cobble all that stuff to together so I just listed it out in text for you .

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[dtango]

BigPlay -

Source?

So why is it that it's always the other guy that has to produce the source???  Shouldn't you have provided a source first? 


...but if you insist, there are many sources for the info.  For starters though you could check here:

http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/aafsd/aafsd_pdf/t088.pdf

This is Table 89 - Airplanes on Hand in Theaters vs. Germany, By Type and Principal Model: Jun 1942 to Aug 1945.  It comes from the official USAAF Statistical Digest.

For instance in May 45 it lists that the USAAF had on hand against Germany at:
2,292 P-47's
2,427 P-51's

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Ack-Ack]

This may be true if you're looking at just the 8th AF.

Yep, same thing with the P-38s that were with the 8th AAF.  It's what happens when the 8th High Command has a bomber pilot's mentality.

But it's not when you consider the 9th, 12th, and 15th Air Forces.

Same with the P-38.  P-38s in those AAF units kept the Lightning in the fighter role as well as ground pounding duties long after the 8th gave theirs up.


ack-ack

[BigPlay]

I hate to break it to y'all who are arguing about which American aircraft did more to defeat Germany: the answer is the Yak and the Il-2.

Actually the aircraft loses were equal in relation to Eastern  and Western front campains. However 80% of the German ground forces were destroyed by the Soviets. I also doubt that the IL2 had any significant areal victories to speak of. Another thing to consider is that it was the British and Americans that were putting pressure on German production lines and distribution of troop and material  to the Eastern front that helped the Russians considerably. The brunt of all German forces with exception of it's navy were at the Eastern front. So it would be logical that the majority of Germany's loses came from an area that had most of it's forces at. The Russian's were responsible for the demise of the majority of German forces but to state that they were the biggest factor in the out come of WW2 is a farce. The Germans would have made short work of Russia if not for the British and American contributions on the Western front. Russia just happened to have more expendable resources that caused the attrition of German's armed forces. I seriously doubt that the remaining Allies would have had the stomach to suffer the kind of loses that Russian did.