Who defeated Germany?

[KgB]

....You think Moscow would of just fell without resistance? Resting comfortably? 

Why not?Its been done before.

[Rich46yo]

Britain and The Few denied his final victory in Europe.
Who in turn continued to support Russia whose army/winter defeated the lion share of the Wehrmacht.
The USA was very much a backbone of the Allies.  Defeating Japan in the pacific whilst profiting from supplying the tools to do the job.

I would argue that Hitler defeated himself aswell but the facts are the combined effort of ALL the ALLIES defeated Germany.

(Except France  )
J/K 

Profiting? We gave England over 30 Billion $$ in lend lease and recieved only 650 million $$ back. And then after the war we spent countless billions rebuilding Europe under the Marshall plan. Some profiteering!

[Angus]

The first shipments of the lend-lease were obsolete destroyers, so their value was on paper whilst being paid in gold.
Not accounted as $$$ were naval bases, information access and blueprints.
And BTW, what figure is the one quoted? Both UK and USSR or just one, and prior to Pearl Harbour or all the war?
Bear in mind that the USA got war declared upon it by Germany....the USA did NOT jump in to save the day.

And here is a bone to Barbarossa...
The LW lost more aircraft to the Brits and French in the 15 months before Barbarossa than they had available there. Those they had were about 50% of their strength, - the rest was guarding the western front or active in the med. As well as some odd 90 divisions.
Now throw that on a 20 mile depth vs none of Zhukov's divisions, and I think that Moscow would have fallen like Paris....

[Nefarious]

I guess we all forget about the Soviet Counter-Offensive of December 5th 1941.

Reinforcements were being pulled from East, Ski Troops and Tanks attacked and drove the beleaguered Germans back. Had they been occupying some or even all of Moscow, I believe the attack would of been sufficient enough to at least gain some of the city back (had it been occupied).

The Attack was successful enough to encircle pockets of German troops (Demyansk, Velizh, Kolhm, etc.), some which were supplied by air drops and gliders until May of 42!

It is of my opinion that the Germans may have been able to make Moscow possibly even take some of the city, but they would have had to deal with that Counter-Offensive and I don't think they had the logistics to do it. No winter clothing, Extended supply lines, etc.

[Angus]

The counter offensive was Zhukov, and it was only possible because of the information that the Japanese went for the weakened Brits and sleepy USA instead of the USSR.
It was 10 divisions sent from the east, a very much smaller force than the Axis had tied up all over the place.

[IronDog]

Sorry Hooligan with this over view I must disagree.

if your going to bring into this topic the upper mismanagement of the Russian military then you must, in a perfect world, bring in the complete incompetence of the German leaders.

Hitler redirected the Wehrmacht how many different times? pulled men or materials out of the original battle plan to accomplish missions that could easily have waited until after the Russians fell?

had say Rommel or one of the other professional soldiers of the Wehrmacht been in complete control of the military instead of Hitler then the Russians would have been crushed in the first summer.

the battle of Stalingrad would have never happened, the battle of kursk would have never happened these battles that allowed the Russians to use their massive numbers in body wave after body wave would have not happened. no mechanized commander allows his army to fall into a static siege war nor would he allow the precious materials, fuel, food, ammunition, air support ect to be diverted away from his front line troops.

so incompetence was rampant on both sides of that fight.

the western allies kept Hitler busy in Africa, Italy and building fortress Europe. had these massive depletion on the Wehrmacht not been a constant and steady reality, then the Wehrmacht would have been over double its initial strength when they invaded Russia. it would not have had to split its supply between multiple fronts, the Luftwaffe would have been immeasurably stronger.

if not for the war on two fronts the Russians would have been crushed without pause.

the Russians did alot, yes i will credit them for their massive sacrifice of men. but that is all they had, the advantage of having more soldiers than the germans had bullets.

the human wave attack is not a tactic or strategy. it is the form of war practiced by those without skill.

it didn't work for china or the north Koreans it didn't win any major battles in Vietnam. it is a losing strategy. unless you have more bodies than your enemy has bullets in the end you will lose.

so i respectfully disagree with you.

but you forget, without having England as a staging area, then the American military would have been unable to get a foot hold anywhere in Europe.

without the bulk of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe being tied up elsewhere, America even launching from England, would have never successfully managed a landing in Europe.  or if by some fluke they managed a beach head, they would have been pushed into the ocean in record time if they had to face the entire military might of Germany.

so America cannot take the majority of the credit for the victory.

no one or combination of two of the allies could have done it. even with all three together, if Hitler and his cronies had not been so incompetent Germany would have won. if not total victory then at the least a negotiated peace in the end.

FLOTSOM

I would beg the differ about human wave attacks not being a valid tactic or strategy.The idea in war is to make the other guy quit.Being involved in a defense that is set up with all the correct positions,artillery,and air support,and still not being able to stop the human wave attack,has a demoralizing effect on everyone involved.I would hesitate to place "Charley" or the NVA as skill less.
IronDog

[RipChord929]

The Russians weren't ded yet around Moskow..
Those 10 divs from the east were only part of
what were launched in the December counter/attack.

Russian civilians had been digging belts of antitank
defenses completely around the city.. Have you seen
those ditches??? They look like the Suez Canal!!!

The "Workers Battalions" (cannon fodder) had the
Germans stopped at the first ring of defenses.. Some
30k short of Red square.. The city was never in any
real Danger of falling...I'm sure recon units could
see the onion domes thru their Binkies.. But the HARD
FREEZE came during that same week.. That is what
Zhukov was waiting for... Case closed!!!

To Stalin's Credit, after he recovered from his episode
of depression, (some reports say, after being chastised
by a well known Soviet general) He issued his, "Kill the
Germans, Kill them all" speech... And as the Germans
approached the city's defenses, he Refused to leave
the city.. WTG unkie Joe!!!

(Hmmm, maybe that's why Stalin didn't have Zhukov killed
after the war ended, even tho he was Stalin's only
possible rival?)   Always wondered why, because he surely
killed EVERY other rival, even rivals that existed only in his
paranoid mind...

The politburo was loaded into an armored train, ready to
depart for points east... By this point in time, the war
wouldn't have ended, weather the Germans captured
Moskow or not... Russian troops were standing their
ground, (and holding on) for the first time.. The righteous
fury of the Russian ppl, was just coming into play.. The
realization was sinking in, that territory was not enough
for the invaders, they sought the entire extinction, or
enslavement of the slavic race... Hitler wasn't talking
BS, he really meant it!!!

That will toughen your ppl up in a hurry...

In truth, the battle for Moskow was lost by the germans
months before.. When 1/3 of army group center was
redirected south to complete the encirclement of Kiev..
And again, when the autumn rains began... Both delayed
their time schedule, so by the time of the first frost,
(ground hard enough to roll tanks) the Germans were
rolling again... But resistance stiffened, and the HARD
FREEZE had arrived,  so it was over...

lots of guys have hit the books in this BB..
Ya know your stuff as well as I do... <S>

RC

[Anaxogoras]

lots of guys have hit the books in this BB..
Ya know your stuff as well as I do... <S>

Yup, I'm impressed!  I started this thread expecting to hear a bunch of interesting stuff from people who know the topic better than I!

[-tronski-]

I rather think it would have fallen like Warshaw.
Some units had the Kremlin towers in their binoculars BTW.

If Whermatch could've fought into the city - theres no way to know if they could've kept it. As Nefarious stated Zhukov would most likely be still able to commit to the counter offensive during the winter months when the Germans probably would've suffered the exact same logistical problems.

 Tronsky

[Widewing]

but you forget, without having England as a staging area, then the American military would have been unable to get a foot hold anywhere in Europe.

Incorrect. American Forces that invaded Sicily, Corsica, Sardinia, and Italy were not staged out of England they staged out of North Africa. Seems that they managed a pretty good foothold in Europe via the MTO. The invasion of southern France was staged out of North Africa, Sicily and Italy.

Even if England had been invaded and defeated, the Royal Navy would have sailed to North America and the Commonwealth nations would have continued the fight.

Oh, and avoiding war with the Soviet Union would have been impossible. Hitler and Stalin could not have co-existed.


My regards,

Widewing

[redman555]

I personally think we beat germany, and we beat japan, cause if you think about it, there would have been NO WAY britain coulda done it without us, we had been sending them guns, ammo, food/water, tanks, cars, all that good stuff


-BigBOBCH

[FLOTSOM]

Incorrect. American Forces that invaded Sicily, Corsica, Sardinia, and Italy were not staged out of England they staged out of North Africa. Seems that they managed a pretty good foothold in Europe via the MTO. The invasion of southern France was staged out of North Africa, Sicily and Italy.

Even if England had been invaded and defeated, the Royal Navy would have sailed to North America and the Commonwealth nations would have continued the fight.

Oh, and avoiding war with the Soviet Union would have been impossible. Hitler and Stalin could not have co-existed.


My regards,

Widewing

What you are forgetting is that we Americans could not have defeated Rommel in the desert without the help of the British soldiers, the attrition against German supply lines and the constant pressure that was maintained against the germans in the Mediterranean by the British.

we only managed a semi quiet landing in Africa because of the battles the British had fought to weaken the German military present there. also lets not forget that the French forces didn't put up any real fight against us when we landed.

the American soldiers learned immediately after their first contact with the German military that they were in way over their heads and stood no chance against the Wehrmacht as things were. not until the Americans had the opportunity for more training and exposure to war could they hope to compete against Germany. Without the British there to provide the time, experience, knowledge and guidance that the Americans needed, all Americans sent to Africa would have been butchered.

without the staging point in Africa we never could have made the Mediterranean landings in Italy southern France Sicily ect.

without the British we had no landings in Africa.

so we needed the British to invade any part of Europe at that time.

the British navy wouldn't have amounted to very much more than cannon fodder for the Americans to use in the pacific theater. without England under direct threat (due to having been hypothetically captured already) and with no place to stage an invasion of Europe from, America would have turned its full attention to japan and put off any western Atlantic invasion indefinitely.

FLOTSOM

[Angus]

Incorrect. American Forces that invaded Sicily, Corsica, Sardinia, and Italy were not staged out of England they staged out of North Africa. Seems that they managed a pretty good foothold in Europe via the MTO. The invasion of southern France was staged out of North Africa, Sicily and Italy.

Even if England had been invaded and defeated, the Royal Navy would have sailed to North America and the Commonwealth nations would have continued the fight.

Oh, and avoiding war with the Soviet Union would have been impossible. Hitler and Stalin could not have co-existed.


My regards,

Widewing

Sorry Pal, have to disagree-a-wee
North Africa was available because of the Brits.
Had N-Africa fallen to the Axis and/or Gibraltar being grabbed by the Axis, the USA could only have staged offence from Britain itself. And N-Africa and the Med was in quite some amount supplied from the UK, hence the convoys through the med, - but there was oil and other goods through Suez.
With Britain defeated, say in 1940/41, I think you'd have been looking at USSR being defeated as well, and 2-3 basic blocks of power in the world, - very much like in that novel "Fatherland" by Robert Harris. I do not see the USA making war and invasion on mainland Europe for "the cause" had Britain fallen. After all, the USA didn't make war on Germany, it was the other way.

And Redman: I think in case of the US aid, well, it didn't save Britain from falling, since the crucial moments of the struggle (1940) were some year before even the lend-lease pact.
US out of the game might rather have lead to the USSR getting all the way to the Atlantic in 1946....

[Widewing]

What you are forgetting is that we Americans could not have defeated Rommel in the desert without the help of the British soldiers, the attrition against German supply lines and the constant pressure that was maintained against the germans in the Mediterranean by the British.

we only managed a semi quiet landing in Africa because of the battles the British had fought to weaken the German military present there. also lets not forget that the French forces didn't put up any real fight against us when we landed.

the American soldiers learned immediately after their first contact with the German military that they were in way over their heads and stood no chance against the Wehrmacht as things were. not until the Americans had the opportunity for more training and exposure to war could they hope to compete against Germany. Without the British there to provide the time, experience, knowledge and guidance that the Americans needed, all Americans sent to Africa would have been butchered.

without the staging point in Africa we never could have made the Mediterranean landings in Italy southern France Sicily ect.

without the British we had no landings in Africa.

so we needed the British to invade any part of Europe at that time.

the British navy wouldn't have amounted to very much more than cannon fodder for the Americans to use in the pacific theater. without England under direct threat (due to having been hypothetically captured already) and with no place to stage an invasion of Europe from, America would have turned its full attention to japan and put off any western Atlantic invasion indefinitely.

FLOTSOM

You are assuming that Germany would have any forces in Africa had Britain surrendered. Again, Germany had too many other immediate problems to dither around in Africa. They only put forces in to prop up the hopeless Italians who were butchered by the Brits.

You have to stay within the "what if" scenario.


My regards,

Widewing

[Gh0stFT]

Who defeated Germany? 
first, who defeated Nazi-Germany?
second, it was plain luck