And just another quick question - on the 205

[Anaxogoras]

If we ever get a G.55 or Re.2005 we'll have a clear answer.

[gatt]

If they dont get the right documents and use them in the right way well, I dont think so. 

[Die Hard]

However, all the official test documents we found report 1.3ata and 2.600rpm as max rate allowed. We dont know if, after 1943 summer, C.205 pilots were allowed to run their engines at 1.42ata and 2.800rpm.

All DB 605A's were limited to 1.3 ata in early 1943 due to maintenance difficulties. Exactly when they were cleared for 1.42 ata is still a topic for debate.

Actually, there is no reason why the DB605A of the C.205 should run differently from the ones mounted on the 109G-2 and G-6 (early).

Sure, but the operational limitations put on WEP endurance was more a question of maintenance and preserving engine life. You could run these engines on max power for far longer than was allowed, but that would seriously shorten the engine's life and was thus unacceptable from a maintenance perspective. The Germans and Italians may have had different maintenance routines and restrictions even if the engine was the same.

[gatt]

Perhaps in the real life but not in a game.

[Die Hard]

Perhaps in the real life but not in a game.

So you don't think the game should reflect real life conditions? The pilots were ordered to stay within these limits. In real life the Merlin engine could be run for hours on WEP without failing, but due to preserving engine life the pilots were limited to 5 minutes as per the pilot's handbook. I think it is reasonable that the in-game planes have similar limitations.

[gatt]

What I mean is that AH cannot and should not have different settings for the same engine, the DB605A that is. Mainly becouse we dont have any evidence of different settings due to different manteinance or whatever.

Should AH2's 109K run their engines at lower settings than those specified in his engine manuals due to the fact that probably (I repeat probably) in the RL manteinance was made more difficult by, lets say, shortage of spare parts? I dont think so.

[Die Hard]

What I mean is that AH cannot and should not have different settings for the same engine, the DB605A that is. Mainly becouse we dont have any evidence of different settings due to different manteinance or whatever.

What does the 205's pilot's handbook say? To my knowledge Aces High models WEP after what the pilots were restricted to, not what the engines could do under optimum conditions.

Should AH2's 109K run their engines at lower settings than those specified in his engine manuals due to the fact that probably (I repeat probably) in the RL manteinance was made more difficult by, lets say, shortage of spare parts? I dont think so.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not talking about maintenance difficulties in the field like shortage of spare parts. I'm talking about restrictions made on engine usage to prolong engine life. With these limitations the DB 605A was a 160 hour engine. That's a very short lifespan compared to allied engines, but this is due to the German lack of strategic resources, the engines were built to be "cheap". If the pilots were allowed to run amok with engine power the engines would have to be swapped out for every other flight, which would have been completely unacceptable from a logistics point of view. The early 1943 1.3 ata limitation was due to spark plug fouling/failure if I remember correctly.

The in-game 109K is already limited to the historic power settings and also limited by having only B4 fuel available. In real life the Fw 190's got priority for C3 fuel, and most 109K's had to settle for B4 fuel. So instead of an "optimum" C3 fuelled 2000 hp 109K we have a more historically correct B4 fuelled 1800 hp 109K. The Japanese planes are also modelled using the poor fuel that was historically available to them. The 109K and other MW-50 equipped 109 versions did have a 10 minute WEP, however I do think that the 109G-6 and G-2 should be limited to 1.3 ata and 5 minutes of WEP. The 109F-4 should be limited to 3 minutes of WEP. That would more correctly represent those planes relative to their allied contemporaries.

If the 109K had been modelled as good as it could have been it would be a 2000 hp 470 mph monster with Flettner servo tabs that makes it turn and dive like a Mustang at high speed. Historically this aircraft did not exist except on paper.

[gatt]

The Fiat R.A.1050 (DB605A) manual is the exact translation of the german one [D.(Luft)T. 3605 A-B, 0 u.1, Ausgabe Nov 1942] so, IMHO, both engines should run under the same settings. I guess italian pilots used them in the same way german pilots did or, better, we dont have (so far) any hard evidence of different behaviour. Pyro/Hitech never explained why settings are different for the 205 ...

 

[Boozeman]

Thanks Gatt for posting the italian DB605s power vs. altitude graphs.

Note that max power for each engine setting is generated at about 2 km, with about 100 PS more than at SL.

Funny though, you can read out this power increase with very well from the speed vs. alt chart of the 109G2/6, where it has a rather steep increase in speed climb and accerleration up to that altitude, while the 205 completly lacks this feature. I have made a overlay where this is quite clearly visible:

[gatt]

Booze, sorry but your chart is blurry.

However, take note that the C.205V Third series (2x12,7mm and 2x20mm) had a take off weight of about 3.400Kg, some 150Kg more than the 109G-2. Only the C.205V armed with the 2x7mm and the 2x12,7mm can be compared with the 109G-2 as far as weight is concerned.

Actually, the less armed 205V had quite impressive performances. From an official report: May 1942, take off weight 3.224Kg, average time to 6Km 5'03". Best time of the day to 6Km: 4'52". All these times were obtained pushing the engine no more than 1.3ata and 2.600rpm.

Try the light 205V in AH2 and check the time to 6Km .... ah, yes dont forget you have only that 5 minutes wep 

[Die Hard]

Try the light 205V in AH2 and check the time to 6Km .... ah, yes dont forget you have only that 5 minutes wep 

What's the 205's ata at MIL and WEP in Aces High?

[Boozeman]

What's the 205's ata at MIL and WEP in Aces High?

1,41 @ WEP
1,29 @ MIL

[Die Hard]

1,41 @ WEP
1,29 @ MIL

So basically in AH the 205 is getting the same WEP as the 109G, just not for as long.

[Boozeman]

Yes, but its not showing in the speed performance.

The 109G2/6 gain 20 mph at WEP over MIL, the 205 just 10 mph.

[Die Hard]

That sounds strange. Are you sure its exactly 20 mph and 10 mph? That sounds very derived.

The speed gain of both aircraft should be very similar in percentage of top speed, but there is another variable to consider: The two aircraft did not use the same propeller. There might be differences in propeller efficiency at high speed.