The Iosif Stalin 2 (IS-2) & Tiger II (King Tiger)

[Babalonian]

How about a couple tanks in the game that would truely be worthy of perking, some that could strike fear into any other GV within range of their guns?  I propose/wish/beg for the IS-2 and Tiger II (I favor the IS-2 personaly, but don't want to propose putting one big-hitter into the game without/before another).

Iosif Stalin tank 2 (IS-2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iosif_Stalin_tank
 
Manufacturer: Kirov Factory, UZTM
Produced: 1943–45 (IS-2)
Number built: 3,854 IS-2

Specifications (IS-2 Model 1944[1])
Weight 46 tonnes
Length 9.90 m
Width 3.09 m
Height 2.73 m
Crew 4

Armor: 30–160 mm
Primary armament: D25-T 122 mm gun (28 rds.)
Secondary armament: 2×DT, 1×DShK machine guns
Engine: 12-cyl. diesel model V-2 600 hp (450 kW)
Power/weight: 13 hp/tonne
Suspension: torsion bar
Fuel capacity: 820 l
Operational range: 240 km
Speed: 37 km/h






122mms of lovin'!  In the right hands and positioned correctly, this thing should be a beast to try and take out with it's thick and angled armor.  Oh, and by the way, was it's 122mm main gun not already mentioned?  While this will hurt on the recieving end it did have an extremely slow reload time compared to other tanks (multi-component ammunition, hand loaded) and could only carry 28 122mm rounds in it's magazine.

----------------------

Tiger II (King Tiger)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_II

Manufacturer: Henschel & Son
Produced: 1943–1945
Number built: 487
 
Specifications
Weight: 69.8 metric tons (production turret)
Length: 7.61 m (10.286 m with gun forward)
Width: 3.755 m
Height: 3.09 m
Crew 5
 
Armor: 25–180 mm
Primary armament: 8.8 cm KwK 43 L/71 (84 rds.)
Secondary armament: 2× 7.92 mm MG34 (4,800 rds.)
Engine: V-12 Maybach HL230-P30 700 PS (690 hp, 515 kW)
Power/weight: 10 PS/tonne
Transmission: Maybach OLVAR EG 40 12 16 B (8 forward and 4 reverse)
Suspension: torsion-bar
Operational range: 170 km (110 miles)
Speed: 41.5 km/h (25.8 mph)


(early/original "porsche" turret)

("production" Krupp turret)


Much beter armor characteristics than the Tiger I, incorporating the original Tiger's thick armor and mass with the beter designed and sloped hull of the Panther tank series.  It was underpowered though in the engine, and as such needed to run at full power to just get moving and was prone to overheating and breaking down.  Also, since running the engine at full power was the norm, it had a very large thirst for fuel.  It's 88mm KwK was an impressive main gun, it had greater armor penetration than the soviet's 122mm (although inferior to the 122mm's pure HE capability). 

[FLOTSOM]

the russian 122mm main gun had horrible loading and long range aiming characteristics. it also proved to be a large but under powered AP round. it was found to be lacking penatration power against most medium armored and virtually useless against heavily armored vehicles. it was equated to being less than the allied 75mm gun firing AP rounds.

but it did prove itself to be an amazing close quarter building buster. it showed its worth during the final battle of berlin while having to fight entrenched german defenders from building to building. its HE round was devastating to any building or bunker the germans tried to hide in.

using it against buildings such as hangers would be devastaing but against vehicles it would do poorly.

think it would be a good choice to add to the game if it was correctly done.

FLOTSOM

[waystin2]

I say add them both.  The Russian tank should be added first, then the Tiger on Steroids.

[Babalonian]

Thanks for the positive posts.

the Russian 122mm main gun had horrible loading and long range aiming characteristics. it also proved to be a large but under powered AP round. it was found to be lacking penetration power against most medium armored and virtually useless against heavily armored vehicles. it was equated to being less than the allied 75mm gun firing AP rounds.

but it did prove itself to be an amazing close quarter building buster. it showed its worth during the final battle of Berlin while having to fight entrenched German defenders from building to building. its HE round was devastating to any building or bunker the germans tried to hide in.

using it against buildings such as hangers would be devastating but against vehicles it would do poorly.

think it would be a good choice to add to the game if it was correctly done.

FLOTSOM

The King Tiger and IS-2 are both big hitters, both have great guns in their own categories.  One being high velocity AP, the other being HE shells with the force of a freight train.  Also, at least in terms of AH, all the tank gun sights seem to be exactly the same, so I don't know if the IS-2's poor optics would be accurately represented.

From what I've dug up on the 122mm, the AP round at best (key term "at best") was situational.  It did have a sweet spot (IIRC ~900-1000 meters) where it could go through the thickest German armor at a good angle (perfectly horizontal armor hit by a perfectly perpendicular shot).  Most tankers preffered (depending on it's mission) no AP rounds in the IS-2's limited 28-round magazine, or at most 8 or 6 out of the 28 rounds were AP instead of HE. 

Most IS-2 tankers found the 122mm HE worked fine against tanks, if you could hit the tank with it you'd blast the snot out of it (if I was in a heavier German tank, I don't know what I'd be more afraid of getting hit by a 122mm HE round than a 122mm AP round).  There are some stories about German tanks getting hit by the 122mm HE round, and even though the round didn't penetrate, the blast was so violent it ignited (or caused a malfunction) in the impacted tank's magazine, causing it to detonate.  I heard of some German tank crews that surrendered after taking one or two 122mm HE rounds (resulting in no significant damage) simply from the force of the impacts on their tank.  I wouldn't model the tank or 122mm from these stories, but I'm sure it was a very terrifying and powerful weapon to be on the receiving end of.

Back to the AP round though, the 122mm was quite effective against the earlier Panzer IVs and StuGs.  But if I wanted a good Russian anti-tank AP round I'd go with a 100mm D-10 on a Su-100, but to get that we'd need to introduce tank destroyers to AH.

[chris3]

moin

im still for the kingTiger the JS and the pershing, of course thay need to be all perked but thay all would be rise the Gv fun  . and ouer panzerIV is still able to kill all three of them so the after all whines should be not so big lol.

cu chris3

[SmokinLoon]

Adding either of these two tanks would be going in the wrong direction, imo.  There are many other tanks and other gv's that should be added to the game prior to those lumbering beasts.  We're missing lots of early and mid-war tanks and support vehicles.

The 251/9 with the 75mm infantry cannon (think of the LVT4 in halftrack mode) would be an awesome addition.

Or the Priest/Saxton with the 75mm cannon.

Or the M18 TD.

etc etc...

The King Tiger and IS-2 would be a waste of time and resources, imo.  AH2 has far better things to add or correct than to add either of those.

[skribetm]

i'd say adding them both would be great for gv'in! sure there's lots of earlier vehicles to add but that shouldn't preclude HTC from completing the vehicle registry with all the wonderful weapons of WWII. the more complete depository of weapons we have, the more fun AHII will be!

[Babalonian]

Thanks for all your thoughts and input guys/gals. 

Adding either of these two tanks would be going in the wrong direction, imo.  There are many other tanks and other gv's that should be added to the game prior to those lumbering beasts.  We're missing lots of early and mid-war tanks and support vehicles.

The 251/9 with the 75mm infantry cannon (think of the LVT4 in halftrack mode) would be an awesome addition.

Or the Priest/Saxton with the 75mm cannon.

Or the M18 TD.

etc etc...

The King Tiger and IS-2 would be a waste of time and resources, imo.  AH2 has far better things to add or correct than to add either of those.

I wouldn't consider them wastes, they would be enjoyed and welcomed by more people than hated I believe.  But I agree, there are quite a few more common tanks that were everywhere in WWII that probabley should be added before these beasts.  I personaly want to push for the StuG, over 10,000 were produced during the war, but there are tankers in this game who think a tank without a 360-degree rotating turret (tank destroyers) isn't worth it's beans (I disagree, but... that's another topic).

I'm not saying that these tanks should be next or last on the development line, but I am pitching that when the time does come (if it comes) that they be released together.

[FLOTSOM]

Thanks for all your thoughts and input guys/gals. 


I wouldn't consider them wastes, they would be enjoyed and welcomed by more people than hated I believe.  But I agree, there are quite a few more common tanks that were everywhere in WWII that probabley should be added before these beasts.  I personaly want to push for the StuG, over 10,000 were produced during the war, but there are tankers in this game who think a tank without a 360-degree rotating turret (tank destroyers) isn't worth it's beans (I disagree, but... that's another topic).

I'm not saying that these tanks should be next or last on the development line, but I am pitching that when the time does come (if it comes) that they be released together.

HERE HERE, I concur and agree!!

if you put in one it wouldnt be right if you didnt put in the other at the same time.

 

 

[glock89]

The Panther should be added first then the Kv-1 or Kv-2 then the M-26 then the King Tiger and the Js-2.

[SmokinLoon]

Thanks for all your thoughts and input guys/gals. 


I wouldn't consider them wastes, they would be enjoyed and welcomed by more people than hated I believe.  But I agree, there are quite a few more common tanks that were everywhere in WWII that probabley should be added before these beasts.  I personaly want to push for the StuG, over 10,000 were produced during the war, but there are tankers in this game who think a tank without a 360-degree rotating turret (tank destroyers) isn't worth it's beans (I disagree, but... that's another topic).

I'm not saying that these tanks should be next or last on the development line, but I am pitching that when the time does come (if it comes) that they be released together.

I agree that the StuG was a very important tank/assault gun for the Germans in WWII... but in AH2 it would be cannon fodder.  Stop and think how limited it would be in usage.  Speed like the Pzr IV, a gun like the Pzr IV, armor like the Pzr IV (similar enough), but with 345 degrees LESS of an attack angle.  First, how many are going to take it vs teh Pzr IV?  Secondly, stop and think how often the enemy comes straight at you to the point of not having to move your turrent more than 15 degrees...  see my point?

[skribetm]

I love this post, and just would like to keep this wishlist on the back of HTC staff's mind should they update the GV's. I know I haven't even grown tired of the Panzer, T-34/76 and M4 Sherman yet, but adding:

• IS-2
• King Tiger/Tiger II
• Panther
• M-26 Pershing

..would really make my thanksgiving and christmas 08 and valentine's day 09 the best ever!!!!!!!

I believe skuzzy can code this in 8 hrs provided we send him premium liquor??

 

[Babalonian]

I love this post, and just would like to keep this wishlist on the back of HTC staff's mind should they update the GV's. I know I haven't even grown tired of the Panzer, T-34/76 and M4 Sherman yet, but adding:

• IS-2
• King Tiger/Tiger II
• Panther
• M-26 Pershing

..would really make my thanksgiving and christmas 08 and valentine's day 09 the best ever!!!!!!!

I believe skuzzy can code this in 8 hrs provided we send him premium liquor??

 

lol, agreed! (thanks for the bump too, I like this post myself  )

I agree that the StuG was a very important tank/assault gun for the Germans in WWII... but in AH2 it would be cannon fodder.  Stop and think how limited it would be in usage.  Speed like the Pzr IV, a gun like the Pzr IV, armor like the Pzr IV (similar enough), but with 345 degrees LESS of an attack angle.  First, how many are going to take it vs teh Pzr IV?  Secondly, stop and think how often the enemy comes straight at you to the point of not having to move your turrent more than 15 degrees...  see my point?

Good input, sorry I missed this earlier.

Yes, it is very similar to the Panzer IV minus 345 degrees of coverage.  But, if properly modeled it will be used in a much more intelligent way than a Panzer IV.  I have played other tank simulators, one that had WWII tanks with 360 degrees of coverage and tank destroyers with only 15 (including the STuG).  Players who are smart enough to know how to use them effectively (and if the game/vehicle is modeled in a way so that it can be) do so and enjoy the challenge (and satisfaction) of up taking down multiple-superior-targets before their sortie is over.  And the bigest factor I think to how successful tank destroyers can be in a simulator is that tank destroyers are typicaly piloted by people knowing they're in a disadvantage, so they work at taking advantage of everything else they can and is available to be successful.  The only situations where I prefered one over the other was when a) I wanted the thicker armor not typicaly found on tank destroyers (typicaly because I would be defending in a location where the enemy knew I would be, so close-quarter flanks and 3000 meter out snipes wouldn't be uncommon) or b) I would be assaulting a location where I would have almost no choice but to get in close-quarters and get into a tough fight (like a city with multiple tanks rolling around in it and defending it).

With the way this game's perk point system works (and assuming tank destroyers would be given a generous handicap, something that people arguing that "tank destroyers would be bad in AH" would expect), my biggest fear I would have with tank destroyers in AH would be that someone who is good at positioning their tank destroyer in a good spot and is patient enough to wait for the right moments would rack up a ton of perk points at a very quick rate.  That player then, already proving their tanking skills in a tank destroyer, plows through everyone with the most expencive perked GV available in the game at the time.

[Rich46yo]

  Add the Stalin. Look me in the eye and tell me it wouldnt be a gas to wheel one of those out the VH?

But I still want the Panther and think a tank destroyer should be added. Overall however I'd like to see more Russian in the game. SU-100 and Stalin, along with TU-2, would be a fine start.

[macerxgp]

Is it just me, or does the Stalin look like a big fat T-34?