Author Topic: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(  (Read 12434 times)

Offline humble

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #90 on: December 05, 2008, 05:23:12 PM »
The hurricane was a fine fighter and an exceptional gun platform however it was less then stellar in the vertical. It weighed roughly 7600 lbs had an engine that generated less then 1200hp and had a sustained climb (WEP) of less then 3000 ft at alts over roughly 5k. The hurricane is far more formidable in the vertical in AH then it should be (IMO). Realize that this is a plane that was removed from front line service in the ETO fairly early in the war, there was a reason. What really separated AH from AW and WB's initially was an exceptionally good FM specific to E retention. It rewarded exceptional ACM and made the subtle variations in performance stand out. The pilots coming from WB's generally had a bit better plane handling skills in this area and adapted reasonably well but the bulk of the "FR" AW guys had a tougher time and the "RR" guys had tremendous issues....so in AH1 1.4 the FM was dumbed down (again IMO). I'm not against the new FM but for whatever reason both the nikki and the hurricane have (IMO) much higher then historical E retention.

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Offline ink

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #91 on: December 05, 2008, 06:55:47 PM »
The hurri was slow and not very maneuverable. That is why they used them on buffs and the spits on the fighters.

if this is true, boy did they mess up the modeling on this one :rofl


Offline yanksfan

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #92 on: December 05, 2008, 07:11:28 PM »
Really?  I don't think so.  From my perspective the whole SAPP thing is more a close knit club thing that excludes more then includes.  For god's sake, just take a close look at how SAPP folks participate in the in game and BBS community.  

If you can't see the elitist over tones, I don't know what I can say...

Honestly, you are one of the most positive posters in the BBS...  I actually miss the "in character" Corky Jr stories...

I guess my question is, how does your group choose players to train?  How many have you trained in the past 6 months?  Are you really trying to propagate a community interested in the mechanics of air combat?

What about other squads?

How many squads are really interested in teaching ACM?  

Rolling Thunder (my squad) has recently started using Titanic Tuesdays as training days, covering various topics, how many over squads are doing this?

Guess I am just a bit sick of reading how crappy the game play is these days, when there are so very few people interested in really improving it....

I am about the most hopeless of cartoon pilots! And I'm in SAPP.

Elitist,,, I don't think so, SAPPers are some of the most care free cartoon charactors in the game, they are of all skill levels. Really they have two things in common, love of 38's and a willingness to teach and to learn freely.
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Offline stickpig

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #93 on: December 05, 2008, 07:38:35 PM »
The hurri was slow and not very maneuverable. That is why they used them on buffs and the spits on the fighters.

From http://www.aviationartists.ca/newsletternew.htm

Ask any WW II history buff which aircraft he most closely associates with the Battle of Britain, and the most likely answer will be “Spitfire”. While not incorrect, that answer is not quite on the mark. As will be shown below, it is not without good reason that the RAF’s annual Battle of Britain flypast is led by a Hawker Hurricane.

In 1933, Sydney Camm, Hawker’s chief designer, began de-sign of what he called the Fury monoplane which would be pow-ered by the Rolls-Royce Goshawk, carry four guns, have a closed cockpit and a revolutionary retractable undercarriage. By early 1934, his design had been renamed the ‘Interceptor Monoplane”, would carry eight guns and be Merlin powered, although the Fury lineage is still obvious. In Aug 1934, the Air Ministry wrote specification F36/34 around Camm’s design, and authorized the construction of one prototype, K5083, which had its maiden flight on 06 Nov 1935. In June 1936, it was formally named Hurricane and in Dec 1937, the first production aircraft reached operational service with 111 Squadron.

When Camm undertook his design, he was aware that Super-marine, (working to specification F37/34 which would become the Spitfire), had much more experience with stressed-skin, monocoque monoplanes and would put most of its emphasis on performance. He therefore decided to capitalize on Hawker’s production experience with the Fury and Hart, and design an air-craft that would meet the performance specification, but would be rugged, simple, fast and inexpensive to produce and quick and easy to repair and maintain.

Camm’s decision paid dividends for the RAF. Although the contracts for the two aircraft were awarded only a month apart, the gap slipped to four months between maiden flights, and to six months for entry into squadron service. For the same expendi-ture of resources, Hawker was able to produce five Hurricanes for every three Spitfires. Thus, on 8 Aug 1940, the official onset date for the Battle of Britain, and despite losing nearly 200 Hur-ricanes in the Battle of France, the RAF could muster 32 squa-drons of Hurricanes and only 19 of Spitfires.

The Hurricane, although it was a little slower and could not climb as fast as either the Spitfire or Bf-109, had several unique qualities/advantages over its RAF stablemate:
• As noted above, it was cheaper, easier and faster to build, maintain and repair. Throughout the war, it had the highest serviceability rate of any RAF aircraft de-spite the often appalling operating conditions.
• It had a superior ability to withstand combat damage and still fly, fight and get its pilot home safely.
• Its sloping nose and slightly elevated pilot seating pro-vided superior forward visibility both during taxiing and flight, and in tight turns, the nose did not blank out the target.
• Its rugged, wide-track undercarriage enabled it to oper-ate from rougher fields and to withstand hard landings without collapsing or ground-looping.
• It had superior manoeuvreability to both the Spitfire and Bf-109, easily turning inside them.
• It was also superior to both as a gun platform.

Robert Stanford Tuck, in his biography “Fly for Your Life” by Larry Fisher, stated that he was heartbroken to be transferred from his beloved Spitfire to a Hurricane unit, but went on to say:

“After the Spit, she was like a flying brick....a great lumbering farmyard stallion compared with a gentle thoroughbred....[but]....after that first hop, after I’d got the feel of her, I never noticed this, or any of the other differences any more.”.

Douglas Bader, who also transitioned from Spitfires to Hurri-canes, in his book “Fight for the Sky”, said:

“Like all pilots who flew and fought in the Hurricane, I grew to love it. The Spit was a somewhat better per former, but when it came to actually shooting, the Hurricane had no equals. In a dogfight, the Hurricane was every bit as good as the Spitfire.”.

He and many other pilots believed that the Hurricane’s stabil-ity as a gun platform came from its thick, straight wing and the close clustering of the guns just outside the propellor arc. Where-as the Spitfire jittered when in the target’s slipstream, and the re-coil from its widely spaced guns tended to throw off one’s aim, the Hurricane was as steady as if it was riding on rails.

From the moment the two aircraft were introduced into RAF service, Spitfire pilots tended to look down their noses at those who were ‘unfortunate’ enough to get stuck with Hurricanes. It is interesting to note that even Luftwaffe aircrew suffered from “Spitfire snobbery” They had been led to believe that the Spitfire was much the superior aircraft, and after being shot down and captured, insisted that they could only have been bested by a Spitfire rather than the lowly Hurricane.

A similar snobbery is evident in the apocryphal story of a conversation between Hermann Goring and Adolf Galland. The former, supposedly, asked the latter what he needed to win the Battle of Britain, and the reply was “A wing of Spitfires”. During that Battle, Hurricanes actually accounted for more enemy aircraft than all other air defences combined. Perhaps, if that exchange ever actually took place, Galland should have asked for a wing of Hurricanes.

Although Hurricanes were directed primarily against bomb-ers, while the Spitfires went after the covering fighters, in prac-tice, the situation was much more fluid. When engaged in fighter-vs-fighter combat, the Hurricane had only a marginally lower ‘kill ratio’ than the Spitfire; however, the Hurricane pilot had a better chance of surviving being shot down.
Altogether, some 14,251 Hurricanes were built, including a large number by Canadian Car and Foundry. They served in every theatre in which Commonwealth forces were engaged, including with the RCAF in Canada. Although withdrawn from UK-based Fighter Command units in late 1941, it soldiered on in front-line service in other theatres until the end of the war. It was employed as a fighter, fighter-bomber, tank-destroyer (when fitted with two underwing 40 mm cannon), photo reconnaissance, from aircraft carriers (as the Sea Hurricane) and was even cata-pulted off merchant vessels (CAM ships) for convoy protection against air attack.

While the Spitfire was extensively developed and modified during its service to enhance its performance, the Hurricane was not. Although progressively more powerful versions of the Mer-lin were installed, the airframe remained basically unchanged. There were 12 marks, and several sub-models; however, these largely defined where they were built, armament fit, or which Merlin variant was installed.

Hurricanes were supplied to more than a dozen other coun-tries, including 2952 (although not all arrived due to losses on convoys) to the USSR, and at least 30 Soviet pilots became aces flying this aircraft. The only Victoria Cross won in Fighter Com-mand was by Hurricane pilot J. B. Nicholson on 17 Aug 1940 who, despite being wounded, his aircraft badly damaged and on fire, pressed home his attack on a Bf-110, destroyed it, and parachuted to safety.

Suffice it to say, that without the contribution of this often under-rated aircraft, the Battle of Britain would have been lost and who knows what the world might look like today!

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Offline Shane

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #94 on: December 05, 2008, 07:45:24 PM »
The hurricane was a fine fighter and an exceptional gun platform however it was less then stellar in the vertical. It weighed roughly 7600 lbs had an engine that generated less then 1200hp and had a sustained climb (WEP) of less then 3000 ft at alts over roughly 5k. The hurricane is far more formidable in the vertical in AH then it should be (IMO). Realize that this is a plane that was removed from front line service in the ETO fairly early in the war, there was a reason. What really separated AH from AW and WB's initially was an exceptionally good FM specific to E retention. It rewarded exceptional ACM and made the subtle variations in performance stand out. The pilots coming from WB's generally had a bit better plane handling skills in this area and adapted reasonably well but the bulk of the "FR" AW guys had a tougher time and the "RR" guys had tremendous issues....so in AH1 1.4 the FM was dumbed down (again IMO). I'm not against the new FM but for whatever reason both the nikki and the hurricane have (IMO) much higher then historical E retention.

or could it be the style of gameplay allowed and still does a place for a hurricane to shine... low and slow furballs...  honestly if i see a hurricane i have no hesitation about either engaging or ignoring... it's a "non-plane."   but it does have it's niche in-game.  vs it's historical matchup, the 109f, g and even fwa5 it's way outclassed, especially in the vertical.  what's missing from the niki and ki-84, IMHO, is torque at slow speeds considering the power their engines have... they're so stable.  great planes.
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Offline E25280

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #95 on: December 05, 2008, 11:24:24 PM »
Great read, Stickpig.   :aok
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Offline shiv

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2008, 03:00:02 AM »
I think the problem becomes that it's a minority of players who are looking for ACM and the majority are looking for the quick kill, get your attaboy's, perks or whatever.  And there is a large crew that is content to 'win the war' whatever it takes.

How the game defines visible success doesn't promote the 'knights of the air' notion of air combat.   Landing multiple kills is 'rewarded' with the kills landed message.  WTG! follows.  It seems like I remember AW said who killed who.  When you'd see  "RAGS killed 2357400" for the 35th time in 10 minutes you didn't think WTG!, you thought, oh, that's just RAGS vulching in the VoD again because he couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag, but he wants to be the top of the scoring list.

It meant nothing, and was looked down upon.  Think about the guys gaming the game for score now.  Would they have done it if their names had been in lights with the guy they shot down 60 times in a row or would they have stopped so not to be seen?  

I'm sure it's just my nostalgia, but the 'downhill' trend for me goes back to those Airwarrior days when they switched it from limited base capture, to anything goes.  When you knew you could only go so far on capturing bases and that the counter attack was coming no matter what to get it back, it kept the fights in a more limited location.  It also allowed for areas where you could up and meet guys halfway because there was no base to take down.  Now, if a good fight gets going, more often then not someone will deliberately grief it and kill the hangers to kill the fight.

There were certainly pickers, and vulchers then too, but they had their own spots to do their thing as well.

And yeah I know it's just nostalgia, but I miss those days when the nights in AH go bad.

Well said.  I remember those halfway fights, you knew it was going to be at 5 or 6k every time, so much fun.
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Offline ink

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2008, 09:27:52 AM »
Stickpig :salute

I have always heard that even though the spit was more famous, the Hurri was the true "workhourse".


Offline CAP1

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2008, 09:49:53 AM »
Stickpig :salute

I have always heard that even though the spit was more famous, the Hurri was the true "workhourse".



IT WAS  true. the spit got all the glory, because it was "pretty" compared to the hurricane.
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Offline esperansa

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2008, 10:09:09 AM »
Hey guys this is my first post in the forums but I've been flying since I think about March or April after I built my new PC. 

I haven't read all 7 pages in this thread but I'm responding to the guys from the first couple of pages so sorry if I'm chiming.  My fishin buddy boxboy28 had been bugging me to get on and fly with him for a while.  So I picked up a $5 stick from the local computer store and started to get interested, subscribed, and read everything I could from the help and trainer pages.  Boxboy was real good about helping me out too and I'm now in his squad.  I'm not saying all this to say that I'm any good at all but just to let you all know that there are some vets out there willing to help people out.  I guess I'm lucky to have a buddy from RL to help me out in game as well as my squadmates who have all been fantastic.

I did start out in a spitIX or XVI but I quickly realized that I needed to find my own ride.  So I checked out soda's aircraft evaluations flew a bunch of different planes and picked one that I wanted to learn.  I'm so used to flying my Yak9U now I'm glad I took the time to find a ride that fit my style.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you see a newb out there maybe you can invite him to your squad's vox channel and try to help him out.  He might play the game for longer than a month.  I'll also say that it took me a while to FIND the help pages and trainers pages on AH's website to even be able to read the material.  I remember being really frustrated about that.  I wanted to read as much as I could so I didn't seem like a complete love muffin in game.  So also encourage you newbs to read these pages and tell them how to get there.

Anyways I've had a blast in AH so far and have seen a lot of good fights.
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Offline Dadsguns

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2008, 10:18:51 AM »
I'll also say that it took me a while to FIND the help pages and trainers pages on AH's website to even be able to read the material.  I remember being really frustrated about that. 

I would agree and think that this is probably the biggest factor. 

The information needed for a new player is not readily available or may seem confusing where to get it, it can take some time just to learn how to get into the BBS and how to use it to even start searching for information. The website could be a little more user freindly and informative.

Might even be a good idea for AH to have newcomers to complete a survey or questionaire after their first billing cycle to get some needed feed back on how and where they could improve.

You know, Customer Service.... :D
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 10:27:12 AM by Dadsguns »


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Offline esperansa

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2008, 10:26:25 AM »
The information from help and trainers pages could be rolled into a .pdf "flight manual" which could be posted on the downloads page or somewhere that's easily accessible and could be printed out.  I was able to print out the quick reference card on some nice shiny card stock and also climb rate and airspeed charts for whatever plane I'm interested in at the time.
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Offline Phil

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2008, 02:20:23 PM »
MWA is slowly starting to look like the LWA furballs...

Been playing many hours in mid-war because I don't like furballs.
Tried playing in late arenas and didn't like getting shot down by 5 of them...
It also applied when shooting down one enemy plane when we outnumbered him 5 to 1 ! Poor guy and boring victory. No satisfaction to me anyway...

Since I've been playing, I've stayed in EW and MW...
Great fights with mostly fair odds for and against....

Sometimes I scramble and look around, I see many friendlies. With respect I change base or flight direction hoping to intercept one or two bogeys instead of following the bunch that will possibly end up in a furball or gangbang !

Early and Mid war is my type of fighter atmosphere.
Great sticks Snaphook, Shuffler & Ack-Ack, Simarill, Soulliss, Slapshot, Stickpig and NKL5, NB, Lazydog so many others... These guys will give ya a good sweat !

Salute All !
Midwar is a good place to be ! Not that bad !

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Offline CAP1

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2008, 02:26:45 PM »
MWA is slowly starting to look like the LWA furballs...

Been playing many hours in mid-war because I don't like furballs.
Tried playing in late arenas and didn't like getting shot down by 5 of them...
It also applied when shooting down one enemy plane when we outnumbered him 5 to 1 ! Poor guy and boring victory. No satisfaction to me anyway...

Since I've been playing, I've stayed in EW and MW...
Great fights with mostly fair odds for and against....

Sometimes I scramble and look around, I see many friendlies. With respect I change base or flight direction hoping to intercept one or two bogeys instead of following the bunch that will possibly end up in a furball or gangbang !

Early and Mid war is my type of fighter atmosphere.
Great sticks Snaphook, Shuffler & Ack-Ack, Simarill, Soulliss, Slapshot, Stickpig and NKL5, NB, Lazydog so many others... These guys will give ya a good sweat !

Salute All !
Midwar is a good place to be ! Not that bad !

Phil / OPP7755

WELL, see.....that's part of the beauty of MW. there's a little of everything in there. there are landgrabbesr, and furballers, on all countrys,
 want a fun furball? attack a base. want an awsome GV battle? same thing.....roll a bunch of panzers. want a 1-1 or 2-1? go attack a base by yourself. you don't really even have to attack it for this......just fly into it's sector, and get the base flashing. if it's a small darbar, then only 1 or 2 will up lookin for ya.

BTW.....if i can get my arse in there more, i'll get to the point where i can give ya a good fight too.  :D all ireally give right now, is good target practice.  :aok :rofl.

<<S>>
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: MWA as bad as any other arena now:(
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2008, 02:42:24 PM »
Disclaimer: My post contains a quote from PFactorDave, but it is not only directed at him, rather the AH Community entire.

Check your PMs, I think you have missed the point.  So many people complain about how the game is played by new guys, but then expect the new guys to seek out the "proper" training without any real guidance on what the "right" training is...  I'll look you guys up when I want to learn 38s, I'm sure it'll happen eventually.  Until then, I suggest you advertise a bit more, it's a shame that it took my plaintive post to get an invite.  You should police your members a bit more as well, there are some wearing your SAPP badge who actively discourage new players.

Who?    I'm bored as hell most nights and spent a few nights teaching a Deaf person the ropes.   I was helping Ghosth with him, he had to log for dinner, I took the torch and ran with it.    Had him hop in, told him what I was doing, as I was doing it (He told me to do it as his wife relays to him what I would be saying as sign language.)   I've never seen you in the TA, do you go in there?    I've gone as far as to literally say "What do I need to do to become a Trainer?"    IDGAF about the "free this, free that."    But I was met with a very stern "Thanks, but no thanks."   So I now don't advertise, but if I see someone who is willing to learn, I'll be more than gracious.   I'm sick and tired of sallies afraid to "lower their precious rank", instead of fighting.   I've reached the point now where I'd rather pass along what I have learned, to others.    

What I fail to understand is why SAPP is bearing the blame for your obvious anger?   You've missed the point, not Dan.   I know Dan well enough that he is not only one of the more honest people that I have never met, but a plethora of knowledge.   
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 02:48:29 PM by Masherbrum »
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