Author Topic: Which Way Do I Turn?  (Read 9843 times)

Offline dtango

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Which Way Do I Turn?
« on: December 08, 2008, 11:24:15 AM »
I posted the following on the 412th training forums more than a year ago.  I thought I would start the same thread with some improvements here in hopes that it helps folks.

Air Combat is all about making decisions for which way you're going to maneuver. In an engagement one of the most fundamental decisions that a pilot faces is simply "Which direction should I turn?"

The direction we turn has a dramatic impact upon the outcome of an engagement.

It may be surprising to people that the simple choice of whether you turn right or left, up or down could be so important. Because it can have such a big impact on a dogfight, we should take some time to review some of the critical factors for making better choices in the direction of our turns.

REVIEW OF TWO CLASSES OF TURNS:
First we should spend some time reviewing nose-to-nose and nose-to-tail turns.  During a dogfight, as two aircraft's flight paths cross or merge, each pilot has a choice to make. They can continue flying straight along their flight path, or they can choose to turn and change direction. This change in direction or turn can be of short or long duration. If the pilots choose to turn, we can categorize the turn into two categories:

(1) One Circle or Nose-to-Nose Turn
(2) Two Circle or Nose-to-Tail Turn

 


For the sake of the discussion we’ll call the attacker in black and defender in red in the diagram above.

NOSE-TO-NOSE TURN
At the merge the attacker turns left in attempt to reverse his direction and get angles and position on the defender.   In a nose-to-nose turn, the defender responds by making a right-hand turn BACK INTO the attacker. Both airplanes are effectively turning back into each other's nose, thus a nose-to-nose turn.  The nose-to-nose turn is referred to as a "one circle" turn because the geometry of the flight paths make it appear as if the aircraft are creating a single circle more of less.

NOSE-TO-TAIL TURN
A nose-to-tail turn on the other hand is different. In the diagram above the attacker again decides to make a left-hand turn into the defender at the merge. The defender however in this case decides to also make a left-hand turn AWAY from the attacker. Both airplanes noses are now effectively turning toward the other's tail, hence a "nose-to-tail" turn.  The nose-to-tail turn is referred to as a "two circle" turn because the geometry of the flight paths appear as if the airplanes are creating two circles in the sky.


CRITICAL FACTORS THAT DECIDE ADVANTAGE:
In either case of nose-to-nose or nose-to-tail turns one or both aircraft are making the turn to try and gain a position/angles advantage on the other aircraft.  Depending on the type of turn different factors decide which aircraft has the advantage.  Understanding these factors is fundamental in making good decisions about which way we should turn in a fight.  I’ve seen many pilots who make that turn at the merge without regard for these factors not realizing that the simple choice of their turn was the key decider in their loss.

For a nose-to-nose turn, turn radius is what dominates and the aircraft with the SMALLER turn radius gains the advantage.

The following diagram demonstrates this principle.


 
In the diagram, the fighter with the smaller turn radius is able to use geometry to his advantage in a nose-to-nose one circle fight.  The point is this: If you’re in a fighter that can turn with a smaller radius then in an angles fight you’re hoping for your opponent to make a nose-to-nose turn.  If you’re in the aircraft with the relative larger turn radius then making a nose-to-nose turn automatically puts you at a positional disadvantage.  Bear in mind that the better turning aircraft is relative and not always decided by the aircraft with the lower wing-loading.

For a nose-to-tail turn, turn rate is what dominates and the aircraft that has the HIGHER turn rate and can get around the circle more quickly gains the advantage.

The following diagrams illustrate this principle.


 
In this first diagram the fighters are in a two circle nose-to-tail fight.  One fighter has a smaller turn radius but both fighters have the same turn rate.  Even though one fighter has a smaller turn radius, because the turn rates are equal neither fighter is able to gain an angles advantage on the other.  Replace the situation with one fighter having a turn rate advantage and the following illustrates what occurs:



As demonstrated in the above diagram the fighter with the higher sustained turn rate is able to gain angles on the fighter with the lower sustained turn rate.  Rate dominates the nose-to-tail two circle fight.

So far it appears that the better turning aircraft gains the advantage in either one cirle or two circle turns.  However take note of the two circle case.  Even though the fighter with the lower turn rate is at a disadvantage the nose-to-tail turn reduces the amount of angular gain in the nose-to-nose case.  In the right situation this can be used to force a flight path overshoot of the fighter with the higher turn rate.  Also the nose-to-tail turn gives the slower turning fighter room to maneuver as well compared to the nose-to-nose case.  Finally nose-to-tail turns take a lot more time to complete compared to nose-to-nose turns.  The energy tactician may use this as a method to turn bleed off the energy of the better turning fighter in order to setup an energy fight.

Summarizing:
In a nose-to-nose one circle fight, the fighter with smaller turn radius gains the advantage.
In a nose-to-tail two circle fight, the fighter with the higher turn rate gains the advantage.

Understanding these two factors should guide our decision making in which way to turn against an opponent.

Everything in air combat is relative.  Instead of treating the above as a maxim I’ll use specific examples instead.  To illustrate the principles of decision making in direction of turn we’ll examine various situational examples to demonstrate the concepts of deciding which way to turn and the resulting consequences good and bad.  I’ll reply with subsequent follow up posts with the situational examples to explore the concepts when I clean them up a bit.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Offline Yossarian

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2008, 01:06:47 PM »
Very nice, thanks for posting it! :aok
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Offline humble

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2008, 02:04:07 PM »
The 2 circle fight is the most underused aspect of ACM in the game IMO. It's also extremely effective as a -E defensive fight regardless of relative turn rate or in a scenario where your at a functional disadvantage since its not seen as often....great post :aok :salute

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Offline Shane

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2008, 02:10:45 PM »
and that last picture is *not* a HO.  Just because the other guy is watching is impending death from up/fwd or up view doesn't make it a HO.  :aok

This is the most common "HO" vs. "front quarter aspect" complaint that doesn't involve straight up jousting.
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Offline uptown

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2008, 02:32:01 PM »
Ok, say i'm in a pony and merge with a spit head on and spit goes up. Does this mean I should pull a split S?It would seem to me to be the worst thing to do in that situation. :salute

Also, in the 2nd from the bottom diagram, the plane on the bottom should delay or lag the loop some to avoid getting in the position that the aircraft in last diagram is in? Am I understanding that correctly? :salute
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 02:41:07 PM by uptown »
Lighten up Francis

Offline humble

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2008, 03:08:28 PM »
It's a question of timing and relative position. You dont need to be fully in plane for a 2 circle fight. I like to get the con set off of 1 win or the other and then roll back into plane...here are a couple of SBD clips from yesterday, In both you can see the use of a two circle strategy from a neg E state...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film78.ahf

Here at roughly 34 sec you can see me convert from 1 circle to 2 circle and at 1:35 or so you'll see after my missed shot a vertical 2 circle again...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film79.ahf

This starts with a 2 circle merge...and I try and force the 2 circle fight as best as I can. Obviously when your dealing with a better stick in a better plane your pissing in the wind a bit but you can see what I was trying to set up at the end. I got off the gas and then on...so obviously my touch was off...but I was trying to set up a canopy shot there at the end and blew it....

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Offline dtango

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2008, 03:23:13 PM »
Ok, say i'm in a pony and merge with a spit head on and spit goes up. Does this mean I should pull a split S?It would seem to me to be the worst thing to do in that situation. :salute

You are correct.  This is a special case.  I'll deal with it in a future example.  The diagrams above are showing you the paths generally in the lateral direction (looking down from above) not vertical.  If it was vertical you have to account for the impact of gravity on your turns which changes rate and radius depending on the orientation of lift vector with respect to gravity.

Also, in the 2nd from the bottom diagram, the plane on the bottom should delay or lag the loop some to avoid getting in the position that the aircraft in last diagram is in? Am I understanding that correctly? :salute

I think you mean this diagram:



This diagram just shows you that if both airplanes have the same turn rate that in a nose-to-tail turn neither would have an advantage.  They are both getting around the circle at the same rate even though one has a smaller turn radius.  If you are the plane with the larger turn radius then you probably want this to be the case.  You wouldn't want to delay or lag the turn if it reduced your turn rate because if you did you would end up just like the last diagram.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 03:25:16 PM by dtango »
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Offline dtango

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2008, 03:24:32 PM »
The 2 circle fight is the most underused aspect of ACM in the game IMO. It's also extremely effective as a -E defensive fight regardless of relative turn rate or in a scenario where your at a functional disadvantage since its not seen as often....great post :aok :salute

100% agreed  :aok

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Offline Qrsu

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2008, 03:32:55 PM »
Great information! However, I was wondering if there was a resource available on turn rates somewhere? I know the AH fighter comparison site shows radius but it doesn't show rate. Any way to get a hold of such information would be great. Thanks!

Qrsu
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2008, 03:39:31 PM »
Hi Orsu, if you want to take matters into your own hands..... What you can do to roughly test turn rate is take up your prefered aircraft offline. Start a wide flat turnwhilst keeping an eye on your speed. Decrease the turn radius untill your speed is holding constant. If you are stilll losing speed you are pulling too tight. When you find a constant speed/turn rate that matches effective turning circle with optimum speed and angle of attack you are in the right area. Refining these values with hands on testing you will find the optimum turning rate of any aircraft.
 I just made that all up on the spot, so appologies if im wrong.

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Offline uptown

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2008, 03:40:55 PM »
Great information! However, I was wondering if there was a resource available on turn rates somewhere? I know the AH fighter comparison site shows radius but it doesn't show rate. Any way to get a hold of such information would be great. Thanks!

Qrsu

I'm assuming turn rate all depends on speed or energy.So turn rates change as speed increases or decreases.
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Offline FLOTSOM

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2008, 03:41:46 PM »
cool post keep it up!
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2008, 03:43:23 PM »
Wow, thanks! Great post!


Great information! However, I was wondering if there was a resource available on turn rates somewhere? I know the AH fighter comparison site shows radius but it doesn't show rate. Any way to get a hold of such information would be great. Thanks!

Qrsu
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/AKUAG/Resources_Files/PerfComp.aspx

Offline Qrsu

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2008, 03:45:25 PM »
Ahh, I sort of thought it had to do with optimal corner velocity and how fast you're actually going but I wasn't sure. I guess I'll have to learn as I go. Thanks guys.  :salute
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Offline Qrsu

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2008, 03:46:22 PM »
Wow, thanks! Great post!

http://www.my2cents.co.nz/AKUAG/Resources_Files/PerfComp.aspx

Geez, I even had this program already but forgot about it.  :rofl

Thanks Bubi.  :aok
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