Author Topic: Which Way Do I Turn?  (Read 9892 times)

Offline Qrsu

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2008, 03:59:58 PM »
So... I've been flying 109s lately and I'm trying to figure out the best way to approach each encounter. If I merged with an a6m2 in a 109F I know he'll have a tighter turning radius thus a nose-to-nose turn is to my disadvantage... however, referencing this graph it also shows that it's turn rate is also higher so a nose-to-tail turn is also to my disadvantage. Obviously the 109F has a greater speed and climbing advantage - so after merging should I be extending, maybe get a bit of altitude on the zero and stick to the BnZ?

Would love to read your thoughts.  :salute

Cursed
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2008, 04:03:34 PM »
Yep, when you're flying a 109 against a Spitfire or A6M or other such aircraft with a tighter turning radius you want to use your climb rate to your advantage. I generally do an Immelman after the merge.
(braces for someone telling me this is the wrong thing to do :O )

Offline uptown

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2008, 04:07:48 PM »
Yep, when you're flying a 109 against a Spitfire or A6M or other such aircraft with a tighter turning radius you want to use your climb rate to your advantage. I generally do an Immelman after the merge.
(braces for someone telling me this is the wrong thing to do :O )

Hey, sounds good to me  :lol :salute
Lighten up Francis

Offline Motherland

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2008, 04:18:01 PM »
Alright, now I'm confused. I compared two of the match-ups I find most difficult (actually, not quite, but there is no turn data for the F4U1A so I subbed in the D).


Ok. So here, the both the Dora, and, surprisingly (to me at least), the Anton have a higher sustained turn speed the Spitfire and the Corsair. But... the Spitfire and Corsair have a higher degrees per second rate and they finish a 360 degree turn faster... what is the most relevant information here?

Offline dtango

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2008, 04:27:11 PM »
Turn rate bubi, turn rate.

Tango, XO
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2008, 04:30:50 PM »
Turn rate bubi, turn rate.

Tango, XO
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OK, that's what I thought (well, hoped :D )
The fact that the Fw190 has a higher turn rate yet completes a 360 degree turn more slowly than a Spitfire or a Corsair seems contradictory to me, but to me aerodynamics is just confusing, period, so I just won't worry about it :lol
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 04:32:48 PM by Motherland »

Offline dtango

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2008, 04:35:27 PM »
So... I've been flying 109s lately and I'm trying to figure out the best way to approach each encounter. If I merged with an a6m2 in a 109F I know he'll have a tighter turning radius thus a nose-to-nose turn is to my disadvantage... however, referencing this graph it also shows that it's turn rate is also higher so a nose-to-tail turn is also to my disadvantage. Obviously the 109F has a greater speed and climbing advantage - so after merging should I be extending, maybe get a bit of altitude on the zero and stick to the BnZ?

Would love to read your thoughts.  :salute

Someone else may answer but you have options.  Firstly it's all relative.  The higher wing-loaded plane (A6M2 for instance) doesn't always have a turn rate & radius advantage.  It depends on the relative speeds of the aircraft and where they are at in their performance envelope.  Secondly if you happen to be the energy fighter in your situation you can use direction of turn to set up a possible energy fight as well.  I'll address this in a specific example.

Tango, XO
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline dtango

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2008, 04:36:43 PM »
OK, that's what I thought (well, hoped :D )
The fact that the Fw190 has a higher turn rate yet completes a 360 degree turn more slowly than a Spitfire or a Corsair seems contradictory to me, but to me aerodynamics is just confusing, period, so I just won't worry about it :lol

No no, Fw 190 doesn't have a higher turn rate.  That's measured in degrees per second.  A higher sustained turn speed isn't the turn rate.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline Motherland

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2008, 04:37:32 PM »
Oh, ok. Thanks.
Well, at least the 190 is closer in turn rate than turn radius... :\
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 04:39:10 PM by Motherland »

Offline uptown

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2008, 04:44:14 PM »
OK, that's what I thought (well, hoped :D )
The fact that the Fw190 has a higher turn rate yet completes a 360 degree turn more slowly than a Spitfire or a Corsair seems contradictory to me, but to me aerodynamics is just confusing, period, so I just won't worry about it :lol

I would think that a high yo-yo would work well to cut the corner on the zeke. But I'd test him first to see how good he is before I got too fancy.  :lol
Lighten up Francis

Offline dtango

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2008, 05:01:50 PM »
EXAMPLE 1

The choice of which direction to turn at the merge can be crucial.  Here’s an example with an old squaddie of mine.

At about the 30 sec mark, PDM in a P-51 and a Spitfire close for a head-to-head merge.

FRAME 1 shows what happens just a few seconds after the merge.

FRAME 1


Just after the Spitfire and P-51 pass each other they both decide to turn.  The Spitfire turns to his left while P-51 turns toward his right.  As described above this is the classic opening of a nose-to-nose turn with both aircraft turning into each other.  The merge is the first critical decision point in this engagement in deciding which way to turn.  Let's analyze this situation with our knowledge of the determining factors of who wins a nose-to-nose contest.

The Spitfire at this point is travelling at 186mph while P-51 is at 265mph.  The Spitfire and the P-51 at these velocities are actually both below but near their respective corner velocities.  This means that both aircraft are near the envelope for maximum performance turns for their respective aircraft.  Of course the Spitfire has much lower wing-loading compared to the P-51 which means it's max performance turn it has a much higher turn rate and much smaller turn radius compared to the Mustang.

RECALL THAT FOR A NOSE-TO-NOSE TURN THE SMALLER TURN RADIUS DETERMINES THE AIRCRAFT WHO WILL GAIN THE ADVANTAGE.

In our situation here at the first critical decision point the Mustang deciding to stay in a nose-to-nose turn has now put themselves in a disadvantage after the merge because in this case the Spitfire has a much smaller turn radius than the P-51.

If you are going to commit to a nose-to-nose turn then you want to be confident that your turn radius will be equal to or smaller than your opponent's.  In a P-51 who is an average turner this means you have to really judge your enemy's energy state correctly, especially against planes that are better turners to ascertain if you think you have a turn radius advantage against them or not.

Because of the difficulty of gauging this, when fighting a better turning aircraft it often makes a lot of sense to use a nose-to-tail turn instead.  A nose-to-tail turn has the effect of stretching out the time it takes to turn which an energy fighter can take advantage of.  We will discuss this in later examples.

FRAME 2


FRAME 2 shows the fight developing 40 seconds into the film.  As we can see here the effects of the nose-to-nose turn just after the merge are apparent.  The Spitfire has gained an angles and positional advantage on P-51, the direct result of the turn radius advantage the Spitfire has compounded by the P-51 making a lazy nose-to-nose turn.

This is the 2nd critical decision point in this engagement.  Though at a disadvantage the P-51 still has choices he can make to equalize or neutralize the Spitfire's angles advantage.  One effective way to neutralize the situation would have been to continue the nose-to-nose turn into the Spitfire.  The maneuver would need to be a maximum performance turn into the nose of the Spitfire.  To accomplish this P-51 could have rolled his wing right some more so that his lift vector was pointed at or just below the nose of the Spitfire followed by a continued hard pull on the stick to turn it hard into the nose of the Spitfire.

In continuing a nose-to-nose turn the P-51 would have been essentially re-merging with the Spitfire, albeit probably slightly in front of the Spitfire.  There would have been a slight risk of the Spitfire making a snapshot but at these speeds as well has having a little bit of altitude to jink or roll out of plane it would be difficult for the Spitfire to make that shot count.

In our situation, in Frame 3 instead of continuing a max performance nose-to-nose turn into the Spitfire, the P-51 stopped the turn, barrel rolled into a split-s that put the Mustang square in front of the Spitfire.

FRAME 3


Once this occurs the Spitfire is now in a position for a killing shot and though the fight evolved to P-51 extending, the Spit is close enough to get a lucky shot to take off his tail.

Choosing different directions of turn at critical junctures in this fight would have changed the entire outcome of the engagement.  Which way you turn may seem like a simple, trivial choice, but it has dramatic consequences.

Link for the film:
[can't load it from where I'm at currently.  Will do so when I'm able.]

More examples to follow.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline mechanic

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2008, 07:06:19 PM »
OK, that's what I thought (well, hoped :D )
The fact that the Fw190 has a higher turn rate yet completes a 360 degree turn more slowly than a Spitfire or a Corsair seems contradictory to me, but to me aerodynamics is just confusing, period, so I just won't worry about it :lol


higher speed in MPH needed for effective sustained turning, is what you are thinkng of. The FW has a higher listed speed as it needs to be faster to make an effective sustained turn which will be wider than those of spit or f4u.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Motherland

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2008, 07:13:08 PM »

higher speed in MPH needed for effective sustained turning, is what you are thinkng of. The FW has a higher listed speed as it needs to be faster to make an effective sustained turn which will be wider than those of spit or f4u.
Thanks for clearing that up for me :aok

Offline mechanic

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2008, 07:39:58 PM »
no problem, most of those charts make my head spin, i tend to ignore them  :lol
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Offline Spatula

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Re: Which Way Do I Turn?
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2008, 11:47:43 PM »
Without hijacking the thread, those charts give sustained turn rates - e.g. the turn rate it can manage in a sustained turn. They aren't good at answering your questions about who will have the best turn rate at any given moment due to the potentially different speeds the two aircraft are travelling, and other factors. Don't take them as gospel that if it says one has a better sustained turn rate, then it will always win a nose-to-tail fight, cause there's more to the situation than just that.

oh, and nice write up tango.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 11:49:16 PM by Spatula »
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