Which Way Do I Turn?

[CAP1]

and you are absolutely sure about your quoted post above? or you just guessing?

even if he is sure, isn't corner velocity, nearly impossible to maintain in any fihgt?

[Cobra516]

and you are absolutely sure about your quoted post above? or you just guessing?

Yes sir, that's the rule of thumb and it seems to be pretty accurate based on my experience in game. 

Corner velocity (or trying to maintain any speed under a max G load) is nearly impossible to maintain unless you have a massive amount of excess thrust available.  The instant you snatch on the G's you're going to bleed that E as a result of substantial induced drag.  It'll make for a heck of an instantaneous turn rate though - for a few seconds.  The slower your speed at the onset of those G's, the more thrust you're going to need to maintain that energy state/airspeed/G.

If you're traveling at a high speed it's easier to maintain that speed under high G loads compared to maintaining speed under a G load at a low speed.  The reason is that the higher the speed, a given onset of G's results in less induced drag.  The higher the speed, the less angle of attack is needed to pull X amount of G's. 

Maneuvering so that gravity assists you (keeping that airspeed up downhill) you'll be able to maintain a speed close to corner velocity for a bit longer.  However, although maneuvering downhill works to keep that rate up, the radius on a downhill pull will be greater than uphill which will have a slower rate but tighter radius.

Another way to figure corner velocity is to take the level, clean stalling speed of the airplane, then take the square root of the max G load that the pilot can handle (is it ~7 G's in game?) and multiply that by the stall speed.  Angle of attack would be a better measure since stall speeds change with aircraft weight but the wing will alway stall at the same AOA, am not sure how the equation would end up though - but it doesn't need to be that scientific to get the corner velocity.

The P-51's stall speed is ~102 MPH at 75% fuel - square root of 7(G's) multiplied by 102 = 269 MPH CV - in the sim that speed and max G pull snaps me to near full blackout and stall buffet.

Remember that your stall speed changes with different aircraft weights and center of gravity loadings, you need a higher airspeed (because you're trying to lift more) for a given angle of attack to stay in the air, but the angle of attack at which the wing stalls is always the same.  An aircraft loaded with aft CG will stall at a lower airspeed, and a forward CG will stall at a higher speed.  The reason has to do with the amount of downforce on the tail (pitch input).  With a forward CG you're holding / trimmed nose up, more force pushing that tail down, this increases the angle of attack (result of increase in pitch) because of the extra weight (tail downforce) that the wing has to lift - take the opposite for a forward CG.

Kind of got carried away, just thought I'd post some aerodynamics stuff, most people probably know all of that already - even if you don't, I'm sure you apply it in game without even thinking about it.


 

[mechanic]

this is why fighter pilots need to pass maths and physics! 

[dtango]

EXAMPLE 4

Greetings gang and Happy New Year!  I've been away on vacation and have recently gotten back home.

Here's another situation demonstrating application of various principles laid out already.

Here is the link to the AH Film snippet:
http://thetongsweb.net/412th/film45_spit_slower_spd1.ahf

The situation was me trying to chase down a Yak in my P-51B near the deck at moderate speeds.  The Yak leads me to a waiting Seafire who tries to jump me.  The film snippet starts at this point.

Frame 1


In Frame 1 the Seafire is above me.  I have a choice to make in my pursuit of the Yak.  If I continue in my current flight path the vertical separation between myself and the Seafire gives the Seafire turning room to make a lead turn which he starts to take advantage of.  To take away that turning room, I pull up and point my nose at his which initiates a merge.


Frame 2


At the merge I have choices to make.  I notice that the Seafire driver is savvy.  Instead of continuing a diving turn the Seafire reverses and pulls up in a vertical turn which is a sign to me that the pilot might realize the effect of gravity on stretching out a turn if the Seafire would have continued downhill.  Recognizing that I'm low on airspeed and that I'm probably in a performance envelope where the Seafire will easily out turn me and remembering the maxim that in a nose-to-nose turn the smaller radius dominates I reverse my direction and dive away with WEP on.  As you can see by the image this has the effect of creating more a less a nose-to-tail turn.

The Seafire is still on my tail while the Yak is turning somewhere ahead of me.  With bandits in different directions and recognizing that I don't have the energy to maneuver against both in series I judiciously make use of my Runstang's speed to extend .  Essentially I judge that I don't have options to be effective against both aircraft at once and need to build energy quickly to regain options.

The extension results in the Seafire staying on my tail and closing slowly while the Yak loops around.  This puts both aircraft on my six which actually now reduces my problem.  More on this concept some other time in a different thread regarding Air Combat Maneuvering (ACM) - 2 or more aircraft working in unison.  With them both on my 6 and not separated by much distance between them I can essentially treat them as if I'm working one aircraft.

About near the 50 second mark I decide it's time to gamble and try and create some massive closure and angles problems for the bandits by initiating a series of violent, max-g barrel rolls.

Lucky for me the Yak breaks off but the Seafire hangs on and is able to take out my oil in a snapshot.  All is not lost however as I able to get the Seafire slightly out of phase with me with his fuselage not aligned with mine.

I then try the next trick up my sleeve which is to gamble on reducing airspeed by chopping throttle.  Remember that in a nose-to-nose situation turn rate and radius aren't always the deciders of advantage.  If separation distances permit then speed becomes a factor.  Recall the following diagram:



When two aircraft are abeam and are separated by less than the turn radius of the greater turn radii then the aircraft with the least airspeed gains the advantage.  (This is infact a specific case of the objectives in a flat or rolling scissors which is the aircraft with slowest forward relative velocity forces the other aircraft out in front.  More on the scissors case later.)

I chop throttle and use propeller drag and dump full flaps to reduce airspeed as much as possible.  The situation is not quite the textbook abeam situation but I recognize that it is close enough.  At around 1:22 mark the picture looks like this however:



As can be seen above the fight has now pretty much evolved to the text book setup where the slower forward velocity gains the advantage.  To demonstrate how this whole sequence plays out the following is an animated GIF from about the 50 second mark onward (done just for you CAP1 )





This is almost an extreme case because I'm going so slow in the P-51B that I'm barely even flying and not able to do anything but the slightest level of bank so that I seem to be more or less flying straight ahead.  However the Seafire still spurts out in front of me because of the separation distance and nose-to-nose principle.  I'm unable to convert it for a shot but the Seafire in attempt to force me out ahead of his 3/9 line cuts so much airspeed that he's not able to recover from his snapshot attempt and proceeds to lawn dart it.

I'll put some more examples up as I get the time to do so.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[dtango]

Sorry gang.  I'm having some problems with my animated gif for some reason.  I'm attempting to repair.

EDIT:  animated GIF fixed.  Be advised, the animated GIF is 8.6 MB.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Lye-El]

Excellent work. I love these animations along with the explanation.

The film gives me a Page not found error. 

[CAP1]

dam....i'm at work, and for some reason, the moving stuff doesn't show right on the monitor here.

now i gotts hurry yup n get home so i can see this. from what i   can see on this monitor, it looks great though!

[dtango]

Excellent work. I love these animations along with the explanation.

The film gives me a Page not found error. 

My apologies .  Here's the right link!  I missed an underscore.

EDIT:  I just noticed that for some reason my website doesn't recognize a single left click to download and save the film.  You can still do it with a right-click and making sure you save it as .AHF file.

However to make it easier I've uploaded the film onto the 412th website which allows the single click download.  The URL is now modified for the 412th url.

http://brauncomustangs.org/films/film45_spit_slower_spd_1.ahf

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Murdr]

FYI AHF film text and voice can be edited in using AHFilm.  Including removing any undesired original text/voice and adding new text/voice dialogue.This page has some examples (my films).  It's difficult to cover all the finer points with voice alone, as the subject matter seems to happen in 2 seconds and takes 20 seconds to explain   I've found parallel voice and text as a good way to cover everything.

[ink]

FYI AHF film text and voice can be edited in using AHFilm.  Including removing any undesired original text/voice and adding new text/voice dialogue.This page has some examples (my films).  It's difficult to cover all the finer points with voice alone, as the subject matter seems to happen in 2 seconds and takes 20 seconds to explain   I've found parallel voice and text as a good way to cover everything.

"A demonstration of BnZ tactics & E managment in practice"

this film is extremely lame, and should not be used for training.
 people will get the wrong idea after watching this.
JMO

[Murdr]

Do tell?  What exactly is the "wrong idea"?

[ink]

Do tell?  What exactly is the "wrong idea"?

well for starters you are "teaching" that its OK to jump on cons that have 3 or 4 nme already on him, you mostly stay in the Hourde, and "pick" , heck, you dropped on a con that is being fired upon by a friendly, but completely ignore the nme on the friendly that is firing at the con you attack,  at one point I saw a bunch of red guys, (mind you all well lower then you) I think to myself " finally some action!" and you run the other way.
 I don't mean to disrespect you, if you take it that way I am sorry, but I hear all the time complains about the "hourde mentality"  and films like this from a Vet such as yourself, only encourages this type of flying.

 I have no doubt that you could use these same Tactics on that NME cloud that was below you, and have had pretty much the same results, you have great aim and for sure know that plane, but it would have been  harder, maybe you would not have gotten as many kills, but it would show noobs and others, what is possible using the correct tactics against a nme "hourde", and encourage more to fly away from the hourde, and look for better fights.
 
JETSOM

[Qrsu]

First of all, I'm pretty sure that Murdr is more than capable of defending himself on this topic but I feel I could lay some groundwork.

Second of all, I don't understand why you had to bring drama to a most informative thread which doesn't deserve this type of crap.

I only had to watch five minutes of the film in question before I was ready to respond -- Murdr is doing it the right way, the way people SHOULD fly in those situations. You're arguing that he goes for the "pick" while all I see is a massive furball where tracking targets for more than 30secs is a surefire way of dying. And as such, disengaging to maintain SA and regaining energy is probably the smartest thing to do. This is not a "Horde" mentality because there are two "Hordes" duking it out. How he's teaching newer players the wrong idea is really not apparent to me.

Flying the P-38, he's using it's ability to use the vertical and stay fast to choose his fights and fight to his advantage rather than falling into the trap of playing to the low/slow turn and burn fest that everyone else is involved in. If you truly believe that unless you engage in the merry-go-round on the deck it's considered dishonorable play then you may want to rethink YOUR mentality. And I'm sure no-one here is trying to force their flying methods on anyone - so to go after how someone choses to engage a furball is overplayed and at this point a senseless argument.

I'd like the thread to get back on track. Thanks.

[Murdr]

well for starters you are "teaching" that its OK to jump on cons that have 3 or 4 nme already on him, you mostly stay in the Hourde, and "pick" , heck, you dropped on a con that is being fired upon by a friendly, but completely ignore the nme on the friendly that is firing at the con you attack,  at one point I saw a bunch of red guys, (mind you all well lower then you) I think to myself " finally some action!" and you run the other way.
 I don't mean to disrespect you, if you take it that way I am sorry, but I hear all the time complains about the "hourde mentality"  and films like this from a Vet such as yourself, only encourages this type of flying.

 I have no doubt that you could use these same Tactics on that NME cloud that was below you, and have had pretty much the same results, you have great aim and for sure know that plane, but it would have been  harder, maybe you would not have gotten as many kills, but it would show noobs and others, what is possible using the correct tactics against a nme "hourde", and encourage more to fly away from the hourde, and look for better fights.
 
JETSOM

You must be watching a completely different flim than I am.  Many of the kills were not truely engaged unless you consider pursuing a con from outside of gun range as "engaged".  A number of kills were due to simple bad SA on the victims part.  I did take the opportunity to pull the trigger a couple of times on enemies where my help was not really required (a p38 sandwitched between two friendlies for instance).  I actually did approach a 4 on 1, but then flew on by. 

I'll have to honestly say that you have no clue what you are talking about. 

"jump on cons that have 3 or 4 nme already on him" as visualized by the average reader is simply not in the film.  I suppose one could spin it to count every tom, dick, and harry that looked at the bogie in the 30 seconds previous to my attack.  However you are clearly either are watching a different film, or do not know what you're talking about.

"heck, you dropped on a con that is being fired upon by a friendly, but completely ignore the nme on the friendly that is firing at the con you attack"  You'll have to point this out for me, as I didn't see it.  What I did see was kill #10 where my help was obviously not needed, and a subsequent vox check to the friendly regarding the inbound 109 the instant I had view of its presence.

"you mostly stay in the Hourde, and "pick" "  This is the most cluless statment of the post.  The film location, as many players would instantly recognize is Mindano A1-A22, which was historically consistant furball hotspot.  Furballs could be sustained for hours between those two fields during which time the advantages and location would shift back and forth.  Characterizing a 18 minute snapshot of a multi-hour furball as horde flying is complete and utter non-sense.

" I don't mean to disrespect you, if you take it that way I am sorry,"  That is BS.  You intentionally mean to disrespect.  Why else would you hijack an informative thread in Help & Training to categorize a film posted by a Trainer on the Trainer's Site as "extremely lame"?  [paraphrasing]"I'm going to act like an bellybutton to you, but take no offense" doesn't cut it JETSOM.  The tone of your initial post is very clear, and it was your choice to pose your comments in a less than cordial and diplomatic way.  It's way too late to assume the role of victim.

"but I hear all the time complains about the "hourde mentality"  and films like this from a Vet such as yourself, only encourages this type of flying...and encourage more to fly away from the hourde, and look for better fights."  This is where things are truely flawed with misconception.  Please read the following quote and review what other types of information is available from the Trainers Site.  Rather than cherry picking (ironic isn't it?) one film out of the entire site content to raise a fuss about.

The role of the trainer is to provide aid and assistance to the player who wishes to improve thier flight skills.

Then there is the role of gameplay.  Gameplay is chosen by the player and not taught by the trainer.  Trainers cannot alter human behavior.  They only impart information to those who are looking to improve the quality of thier gameplay.

You cannot mix these two fundamentally different ideas in a conversation without stepping on toes.  Anyone attempting to coerce other players into thier style of gameplay is wrong to do so.  It is one thing to offer up the different styles, but it is an entirely different matter when one attempts to force other players to play 'thier' game.

However, if you must know when the thread Tips To Being Successful In Complex Engagements was a fresh topic.  I happened to film this flight, and thought it might help visualize the points that the OP was attempting to describe.  So I posted it.  That would fall under "imparting information".   Making a spectical like you're doing here by cherry picking select information that does not fit your prefered style of gameplay would be more along the lines of "coerce other players".  Especially in light of the fact of the wide range of other information offered.

[ink]

 I thought while watching it that this is whats wrong with the MA,as you did engage nme that were already engaged, one was being put on fire and you still shot him and got the kill, one of the things I cant stand is when I am firing upon a nme and some green guys swoops in and kills him, that's why I try to avoid green guys as much as possible.

 I should have watched the film a second time, I re-watched it and and I am sorry that I spoke so harshly, there was less of the "hourd" then I first thought, and yes I do acknowledge the fact that most of your killz where due to poor SA on there part. and the fact that you are a great shot.


I still do not agree with the jumpin on a con already being attacked or on fire.
 
 I truly did not mean disrespect, sorry you took it that way,

 I will leave you to your informative thread.