Observations on the current MA balance and a couple of random thoughts

[Pongo]

Oh.
So you have 4 to 1 kill to death in it cause of some super skill of yours not because the guys in planes have a rediculous challange to take you out.
Thanks for invalidating your own point. You are a hypocrite. If you have expertise in scenario design then post about that. Dont post your fluff about how ballanced the ostwind is if you dont stare down that 37mm instead of up it....
It is increadably hard to take out the ostwind vs anything else in AH except a tank. You have a pretty good chance in a jabo bomber if the you really know what you are doing. If you want your opinion taken seriosly then post responsibly. I have seen you post several times on the ostwinds "weaknesses" Dont do so. You know nothing about it.

[tshred]

Good post Karnak.

I only have one thing to say.....

ROLLING PLANE SET!

That and my squad mates that didn't come over from WB are the only things I miss.

ts

[Vermillion]

Nope.

Again Pongo, either your not reading my posts or your selectively reading it and only understanding half of what you read.

I said in my posts that it turns into a gunners duel with the Osty winning most of the time due to greater effective range, and lag on his side. I mean how hard is it to hit a target that is flying straight and effectively level, right towards you. And you have greater effective range, plus what amounts to unlimited ammo.

I said that IF you win the gunners duel, then the Osty has probably lost his turret.

Please, I beg of you to go back and show me where I've posted differently.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Zigrat]

I *personally* dont think too many people have a problem with the ostwind in a anti aircraft role. It is very good at that role, but its supposed to be.

its the fact that the *total* destructive power of the available ammo to the ostwind (damage of a 37mm shell * 1000) is greater than the panzer (75mm * 80). IMO this should not be the case. Whats teh answer? Reduce the damage of the 37mm shell. Make it strong enough that 1 hit will still kill a fighter sized target (as it should) but thats it. Also, model barrel overheat and reload time. Then, most peoplen will not have a problem with it.

[Soda]

Zig,
  That's right, the Ostwind introduced a capability that completely changed the game, the fact that one vehicle could completely close a base.  The Panzer never could alone, neither could any bomber until the Lanc came along.  Thus, the Ostwind is used as much offensively as defensively.  I don't think many people have a problem with their defensive use (i.e. defending tanks or M3's), but their use offensively is a cruel joke.

I want to see defensive 88mm at bases for dealing with Ostwinds that get too close    Or little troops that come running out with a hand grenade and toss it into the open coupula  

Soda

[Pongo]

"Flakbait, the current Osty is quite vulnerable to getting its turret disabled by even light MG's if strafed. The problem is that the Ostie usually kills the attacker first. Armor isn't a problem"

Vermillion. Here you go I had too look all the way up this thread to find it..... Maybe I cant read.
I interprete the term "quite vulnerable" to mean that a fighter fireing only light mgs(spit with 303s firing mgs only) hitting an ostwind from the top (you dont state this but it is a reasonable deduction) has a good chance of disableling the gun. This is not true. Even a hogc has a small chance of disabling the gun on an ostwind.
Yes it can happen. But I would not plan on it. In a scenario where several fighters are attacking an ost and one or two of them gets a real long burst in at short range..mabye it would be likley with 20mm or 50 cal. I aggree that what you say SHOULD be the case and have stated so myself. The vehicle is open topped. 303 rounds should be sufficent to at least kill the crew when fired from a high angle. But in the game it is not the case. It has some vulnerablity. It is not imune any more but saying that it is quite vulnerable is bull. A good straffing attack seems in practice to more likely out right kill an osty then to just kill the gun. For some reason ostys are great at taking the guns out on panzer IVs, even at a range where they have 0 chance of penetrating the tank....I dont know why.

Your statment may be interpreted to mean.
If totally ignored and allowed multiple long burst even a mc202 can kill the gun on an osty.
While I can aggree to that fact. I dont think a reasonable person could interpret your post that way. I dont think you intended to have it interpreted that way. I dont know what the value of that information is in regards to the thread but ok.

Armour is an extreme problem on the osty. It can take multiple turrent hits from a 75mm. It can take hundereds of 40mm hits if it stays behind the line of death from ack. You can strafe it all day with hispanos and if you dont hit it just so it will not be effeced in the least. It is vulnerable to bombs. That is much better then it was.
Your point about gun dueling with an ost is true. I never contested it. It is also very hard to hit crosssing ac with it.. It is not perfect.

Your point about the relative leathality of cannons is also true. The only point is would the hispano be as much better in ww2 as it is here. I dont think so. Many obviosly do. But many people thought it was fine when you could easily whipe out 4-5 bombers a sorti with it so who knows.

As to people complaining about the spit guns..They did. But obviosly not so loudly as it still is not so deadly in that 2 cannon low ammo load out. When fighting spits you have to be concerned about its hitting power and accuracy. But not to the exclusion of all other considerations. Yet that is how you have to treat the 1c.

[Vermillion]

I agree with you all that the Osty's effectiveness on ground targets is unbalanced in comparison to the Panzer. The 37mm versus ground targets may be slightly high, but IMO its probably more of an issue that the 75mm is too weak.

It takes what, something like 20 rounds of 75mm HE to take down a hanger? In reality it would take 2-3 at most. If you think about it, a single un-opposed (by other tanks or serious AT weapons) Panzer IV could take apart a small airfield without breaking a sweat.

I've seen photo's/short movie clips of modern light cannons, for instance the 30mm mounted on the US Bradley APC that make short work of houses and brick/block small buildings. They literally almost saw the building down, very quickly. Even .50 MG's will totally destroy non hardened structures.

I think the reason that the Ack in AH doesn't kill Ostie's is the manner in which the aiming is done. Notice that it aims for center of mass, which for the Ostie is the same as for the Panzer, the heavily armored front hull. But I'm not sure how you solve that problem with "dumb" AI.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[AKDejaVu]

I believe the ostwind should be looked at in the game.  It was never intended for the role it is excelling in right now.

What I don't agree with is any kind of adjustments to damage model that would be skewed toward unrealistic behavior.  If an Ostwind had the capability to totally destroy something like a hangar with 40 rounds, then it should be modeled.  There should be no "declawing" of anything.  If it modeled accurately.. leave it.  I would like to see the adjustments made on the aplication side of the house.  Should the Ostwind be a readily available offensive weapon?

I do think the panzer rounds should be more effective against structures if it were just a matter of destroying a building, but remember that you aren't really destroying a hangar... you are destroying all of the aircraft/vehicles at the base for 15 minutes.  Gameplay will always come into the picture with this type of strategy.

AKDejaVu

[Pongo]

If I was looking at the ost wind. I wouldnt change its ballistics or damage. I would question if it had 1000 rounds. The mobelwagon(same thing without turret armour)  carried less then 500. THat would be a signifigent difference in the vehicle.
I would also look at whether the ostwind should have the Panzers imunity to ack. The panzer has about a 300 yard advantage on any ack that can hurt it. IE at the range where the ack opens up it will never hurt the front of a panzer. This is a game play thing that works well. But the ostwind seems to have inherited that imunity. That is a bad idea and considering the lighter armour(less then 1/3) on the turrent unrealistic as well.
The last thing I would do is severly lower the ROF of the thing while on the move. It was fed not by a belt but by 8 round clips fed into the left side of the cannon. These clips have to be grabed from arround the inside of the turrent or inside the hull. Not a bad problem stationary but very difficult on the move. On the move give it an 8 round burst. then the delay that a panzer has then another 8 round burst.
Its armour has to be fixed like the panzers does.

[SKurj]

 

Originally posted by Pongo:
If I was looking at the ost wind. I wouldnt change its ballistics or damage. I would question if it had 1000 rounds. The mobelwagon(same thing without turret armour)  carried less then 500. THat would be a signifigent difference in the vehicle.

The specifications of the Ostwind have been posted in previous threads, and they do confirm 1000 rounds of ammo.
(just glad they only ever made 40-50 of the things)

SKurj

[Hamish]

Easy Solution to the "Ostwind Crisis":

Perk it

would even be realistic seeing as how there was so few of them even made.


Hamish!

[bloom25]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I want to ask why you think the la7 would be unbalancing?  It's no match for any of the other fighters you listed.  It's advantages over the la5 are 3 20mm instead of 2.  Slightly higher top speed, reduced weight.  (Side effect here would be reduced visibility.)  Basically it's just a slightly improved varient.

I'm kind of surprised we haven't seen it in AH yet.

I think the stdres terrain pretty much solves the main issues I was having with vehicles.  They can no longer get to a base faster than you can fly to the base they came from.
I spend MANY nights last tour jumping from base to base, rolling a tank, and killing the Osties that were continually spawning less than 5 minutes away.  It got old pretty fast.  My stats in the ostie won't really tell you the real story of how much I used it.  I got 90% of my kills in it during the "evil con" mission shooting Pizza Men.  I only flew the 1c for a couple sorties last tour in missions.  I too feel it is overused.  I feel the same way about the n1k and spit.  I also think that my feelings should not keep people from flying them.  I've played this game long enough to know that the "dweeb" rides of choice will change every version.  



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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[Karnak]

 

Originally posted by me:
Fw190D-9, La7, Ki84b and Spitfire F.MkXIV would dent its numbers but some of those might be worse monsters, making the cure worse than the disease.

bloom25,
I said "some" of them.  I was referring to the Spitfire F.MkXIV and the Ki84b.  I don't think that either the La7 or Fw190D-9 would be worse than the F4U-1C.  Frankly, I don't think they'd be as bad for balance.

Hope that clears that up.  

Sisu
-Karnak

[Pongo]

I know skurj. Im still looking for some good reference on it. I dont believe that makes scense thats all. 125 8 round clips....
the 470 number makes more scense. How could they have doubled it in the same chassis....
Ill keep looking. But that stat is very suspect to me.

[LJK Raubvogel]

 

Originally posted by Pongo:
I know skurj. Im still looking for some good reference on it. I dont believe that makes scense thats all. 125 8 round clips....
the 470 number makes more scense. How could they have doubled it in the same chassis....
Ill keep looking. But that stat is very suspect to me.

Pongo-I've seen that figure in more than 1 reference. It's possible they towed an small ammo carrier behind the Osty, but thats just a guess.


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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps