Author Topic: Cherry Picker  (Read 8004 times)

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2008, 08:32:46 PM »
I'll put my interest in WW2 aviation up against anyone's but  I don't think it has anything to do with it, or being an old timer.  I started flying AW in 96 and it didn't take long to learn which guys spent there time hanging above the fight only coming down when they could find a target that was already engaged.  They had all kinds of excuses for not fighting then too :)

I don't recall the first time I heard the term 'picker' but those type of players have been around a long time.

Agreed, on all points (AW FR 10/95 - 12/01).  Never could figure out the thrill of the pick.

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Offline Ghosth

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2008, 08:33:46 PM »
Far as I can remember it first started showing up about 4 or 5 years ago. Well after the big AW influx.

So my money is on it being more of an AH thing. WB it would have been "bounced", poor SA, etc.

Depending on which side of the cherry your on, its either downright nasty or simply smart flying.

Never thought about cherry's not liking to be picked, bet they have some choice things to say about us huh.

Offline Treize69

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2008, 08:35:20 PM »
I might get angry when I get picked, but in hindsight I can always chalk it up to either poor SA or hanging myself out to dry by overcommitting. The best pickers are just guys with superior SA and the discipline to wait for the opportune time to engage.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2008, 09:00:11 PM »
Never thought about cherry's not liking to be picked, bet they have some choice things to say about us huh.



« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 09:03:15 PM by Lusche »
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2008, 09:51:13 PM »
See Rule #4

Offline Getback

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2008, 10:56:08 PM »
Back in the day, in Air Warriors I was accused of being a cherry picker. I told the guy all my kills are cherry picks. Never heard another word about it.  :lol :lol

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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2008, 11:29:30 PM »
Ok, one more time to bring in the New Year. The anti-pick sentiment is a pure contrivance of gaming. Purists of WWII combat aviation (most of us that hearken from the pre-2000 era of this genre) know that 90% of all Air to Air victories were scored by unseen enemy...IE: A Catastrophic failure of SA on the part of the victim. Virtually all tactical air combat dogma is predicated upon mutual support and the manipulation of position and energy to exploit an advantage. The mythology of the 1 vs. 1 hermetically chaste engagement is pure, unadulterated, gaming fiction. The only time it happened in WWII is if there was a massive bloodbath whereby wingmen had died and a single plane of an element accidentally became isolated or there was a massive and mutual failure of navigation whereby two opposing aircraft found themselves alone together, or if some gung-ho hotshot pilot disobeyed orders and went out alone in which case he would probably be court marshalled if by some miracle he was lucky enough to find a lone aircraft to engage and survived the engagement.

Combat aircraft after WWI were not designed to fight individually, in isolation from one another. Cooperative wingman, element, flight and squadron tactics evolved as a result of and were the inspiration for new aircraft design throughout all phases of the war. Post-WWI Air combat was never and will never be about the mythical single vs. single duel to the death. After the chivalric days of WWI and the very similar performing and armed aircraft which embodied the golden age of the tight turn radius the symphony of faster paced complex engagements prevailed. WWII and the technological maturation of aircraft design brought a much wider variety and disparity of plane characteristics, weapon packages, ballistics and design philosophies into play. The only thing they really had in common was the need for mutually supportive tactics for mutual security in complex engagements. The wide variety and disparity of aircraft characteristics meant the logical development of tactics specifically for the purpose of the systematic exploitation of the deficiencies of the enemy's aircraft while maximizing the advantages of one's own to maximum efficiency and effectiveness.

The AH MA is an even more extreme caricature of the real life match-up scenarios that occurred in WWII as all major country's dramatically dis-similar aircraft are represented and potentially involved in every complex engagement. This makes the tactical consideration of strength vs. weakness even more important. Most people I see complain about pickers are people that fly slow turny birds and choose to latch onto a single foe in single-minded 100% aggressive fixation. While I admire the aggressive spirit, that uncompromising, un-yielding mindset is ill-suited to multi-plane engagements, real or gamed. Air combat at its core is a delicate balance between offense and defense. Too defensive minded and you fail to kill, too offensive and you fail to live. I have just as little remorse for the one who is too conservative to kill as I do for the one that is too reckless to live.

Cherry picking as we describe it today is actually underrepresented as a form of dispatching foes in the game relative to real life. The reason being, we don't actually die in AH so people tend to do things no sane pilot in WWII would even consider. Also, your average 15+ year air combat game vet has thousands upon thousands of combat flight hours of experience, as opposed to the 100 or less your average WWII combat aviator may have had.

Personally, I have just as much respect for the AH pilot that can fly with surgical tactical precision as I do for the one that can fling his bird around like a rabid racoon on crack. To put oneself in a position to perfectly exploit an enemy's weaknesses while not revealing any of yours to be exploited in the same fashion is a thing of beauty, akin in essence to the flawless playing of a musical instrument.

Contrary to popular opinion, no successful tactical pilot ONLY cherry picks, it's impossible. One of two things will happen either of which denote a lack of success. 1) You'll fail to kill quickly enough to be worth consideration or 2) You'll over-commit in an effort to kill more time effectively and get killed in the process forced to mauneuver with an intrinsically more manueverable aircraft. The timing required against generally more maneuverable enemy, the minimal legitimate opportunities presented in an average engagement and the constant influx of new enemy that present an immediate threat make cherry-picking alone nonviable as a one-dimensional approach to air combat in AH. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 12:16:20 AM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline VonMessa

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2008, 11:37:23 PM »
I volunteer to buy your next round, Zazen  :aok
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2008, 12:44:48 AM »
Ok, one more time to bring in the New Year. The anti-pick sentiment is a pure contrivance of gaming. Purists of WWII combat aviation (most of us that hearken from the pre-2000 era of this genre) know that 90% of all Air to Air victories were scored by unseen enemy...IE: A Catastrophic failure of SA on the part of the victim. Virtually all tactical air combat dogma is predicated upon mutual support and the manipulation of position and energy to exploit an advantage.

Zaz`you've`been saying that since AW, and you were one of the guys doing it then too.  If that's how you want to play it, more power to you.

No one dies, there is no risk, so taking a chance in a fight isn't a lack of SA.  There are enough of us who 'furball' who can fly it the other way and live forever.  Frankly it bores me outside of Scenarios because it serves no purpose.

But PLEASE don't spout WW2 history as a justification for flying one way or another in a flight sim. This isn't WW2 and we don't die. The second we only get one life and never get to play again, I'll buy it.  Until then, I can't.

All you do is give justification to those guys who spot you 5K below, come racing in at light speed, shoot, and race to the next sector before turning around.

And frankly you need guys like me down there mixing it up, so you can fly the way you do.

If we didn't, this would be the absolute most boring game in town. 

Lets be honest.  My type of play can survive without yours.  Yours cannot survive without mine :)
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2008, 12:48:29 AM »
I volunteer to buy your next round, Zazen  :aok
I read the whole thing!  Nice post Zazen. :aok

Far as I can remember it first started showing up about 4 or 5 years ago. Well after the big AW influx.

Ok, there's my answer!  Cherry-Picker originates in AH itself.  I wonder who has the honor of starting the causal chain of "picker!" cries that dominate 200 today? :lol
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 12:51:27 AM by Anaxogoras »
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2008, 12:57:25 AM »
All you do is give justification to those guys who spot you 5K below, come racing in at light speed, shoot, and race to the next sector before turning around.

I can name on one hand the number people people in AH at the moment that have the timing and gunnery to literally do what you described consistently enough to approach any level of overall effectiveness at it.

Quote
And frankly you need guys like me down there mixing it up, so you can fly the way you do.

If we didn't, this would be the absolute most boring game in town. 

Lets be honest.  My type of play can survive without yours.  Yours cannot survive without mine :)

If you read my conclusion paragraph I clearly state no one can just cherry pick and be ultimately successful in AH. It's just not possible. The type of aircraft you must fly and the manner in which you would have to do it would be so time intensive as to render any modicum of success you may have meaningless. The would be cherry-picker is either ineffectual overall or must, at least a few times a sortie, mix it up with aircraft that outmaneuver it significantly. That is extremely fun and challenging. A tiny misjudgement of E states and the would be picker is a fish in a barrel for 3/4 or more of the planes in the set. The angles fighter is not so constrained by the minutia of circumstance. An angles fighter can use that maneuverability to negate an E advantage or pull lead for a shot vs. any pilot of equal or lesser skill in a less manoeuvrable plane.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 01:06:27 AM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2008, 01:05:43 AM »
Again, more power to em if that's how they choose to fly.

My bigger issue is trying to justify it based on WW2 aviation history.  We get to choose the plane we fly, the mission we fly, the way we fly.  We get to choose all the options.

The guys who did this for real, did not get that choice.  To use them as a justification for a playing style in a flight sim, is just silly.  Would you be arguing the same if HTC decided when you signed up that you were going to be a Val, Stuka or P40B pilot for the duration of your time in game? :)

If you find your fun that way, I sure won't condemn you for it.  It's your dime.

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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2008, 01:14:25 AM »
Again, more power to em if that's how they choose to fly.

My bigger issue is trying to justify it based on WW2 aviation history.  We get to choose the plane we fly, the mission we fly, the way we fly.  We get to choose all the options.

The guys who did this for real, did not get that choice.  To use them as a justification for a playing style in a flight sim, is just silly.  Would you be arguing the same if HTC decided when you signed up that you were going to be a Val, Stuka or P40B pilot for the duration of your time in game? :)

If you find your fun that way, I sure won't condemn you for it.  It's your dime.



I'm not using history to justify anything. I am using history to illustrate the entire evolution of aircraft and tactics of which "cherry picking" is a fundamental and integral part. AH equips us with a reasonable facsimile of the aircraft and conventional air combat dogma equips us with the tactics. History just shows us how those came to be and why.

Cherry picking isn't a choice of playstyle at all. It can literally be construed as the mode of killing 90% of the time in complex engagements. Anytime you clear a friendly, take out a dragged or roped bandit you are cherry picking. In fact, any kill that isn't an isolated 1 vs 1 kill must, by definition, be a cherry pick. So, to denounce cherry picking is clearly ridiculous. I want as many "cherry pickers" flying in my area as possible, they're the ones saving my bellybutton and each other's. Anyone who doesn't cherry pick is useless in a complex engagement.
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2008, 01:23:37 AM »
I'm not using history to justify anything. I am using history to illustrate the entire evolution of aircraft and tactics of which "cherry picking" is a fundamental and integral part. AH equips us with a reasonable facsimile of the aircraft and conventional air combat dogma equips us with the tactics. History just shows us how those came to be and why.

Cherry picking isn't a choice of playstyle at all. It can literally be construed as the mode of killing 90% of the time in complex engagements. Anytime you clear a friendly, take out a dragged or roped bandit you are cherry picking. In fact, any kill that isn't an isolated 1 vs 1 kill must, by definition, be a cherry pick. So, to denounce cherry picking is clearly ridiculous. I want as many "cherry pickers" flying in my area as possible, they're the ones saving my bellybutton and each other's. Anyone who doesn't cherry pick is useless in a complex engagement.

I didn't denounce anything but using history as a justification.  And Zaz, we're all useless in the overall scheme of things cause the game is just that.  Think of all the time we've wasted over the years!

Again, you need me down there low drawing fire for you to fly your game.  I don't need you up there for me to fly mine :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Cherry Picker
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2008, 01:30:41 AM »
     I must have missed all those noble self deprecating WBs types while perusing the Channel 200
Whaaa Whaaa fest.  Could it be that only AW types are sore losers?  What a concept!

I just find it highly amusing that the original poster asks a question that describes his own timid flying style.


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