Author Topic: Thoughts on the P-47N  (Read 4276 times)

Offline Anaxogoras

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Thoughts on the P-47N
« on: January 12, 2009, 03:45:34 PM »
Well, I'm no longer in a Luftwaffe squadron and have left the 109 in the hangar this tour.  Our new squad, the TAC Drivers, rotate which aircraft we focus on each tour, and this month it's the P-51, F6F, and P-47 (next month Russian and Japanese).  The F6F and I have come to an understanding for cv hops, and though I'm hardly a good 51 stick, I find it fairly easy to boom n' zoom with it because of its high speed at military power and decent climb-rate.

The P-47 series is a little different.  Until I recently started comparing the performance of our aircraft with hard data, I was mystified as to why the P-47N has an ENY of 5.  Its climbrate at military power is barely 2000fpm, its top speed is slower than the rest of the 47s without WEP.  Its advantage over the D-40 (20 ENY) is top speed with WEP, range, and that is all.  Still, that extra speed is useful because the D-40 is SpitXVI fodder without a pilot mismatch, so I decided to focus on the N and see what it's all about.

My gunnery is above average, but I still find the 6x50cal armament mediocre, so the 8 guns are a good improvement over your typical American aircraft (and they last forever).  I set my convergence to 400 yards and will open up at 600-800 yards while closing on my target.  The roll rate at high speed is very fast, so the 47N is at home in shallow-dive attacks.  Trouble appears after the diving attack, when it's time to regain that lost potential energy.  Here is where the 51D is superior to the 47N because of its better powerloading.  Any pilot who wants to succeed in the 47N must be very selective about how much energy he wants to sacrifice for a guns pass on a target; he must be patient.  Investments of potential energy into kinetic energy do not maintain equality in the other direction of exchange.

The 47N pilot must also be wary of receiving extra attention from Spit XVIs, La-7s, Ki-84s, 109K-4s, etc.  A lot of people see a 47 as an easy target, so you frequently find yourself dragging more than your fair share of bandits for friendlies.  The 47N does best in large, multi-bandit engagements where its speed and firepower work to the benefit of wingman tactics.  On the other hand, the 47N does poorly in areas where combat is light.  For example, after killing a 190D-9 1vs1 who started with altitude over me, a Ki-84 appeared above my position.  With only 2000 between myself and the ground, my chances were grim without friendlies nearby: it would be better to have two low 47Ns vs two high Ki-84s, than 1 low 47N vs 1 high Ki-84.

Which leads to the following point: do not get low in the 47N if there's any chance a bandit will bounce you from above.  Even with only 5k ft to work with, a higher bandit is no reason to panic (still reason for caution), but with only 1k ft a SpitXVI or La-7 will eat you for breakfast.  Setting a hard deck in your area of combat is more important in the 47N than almost all other fighters.  It is not so much the 47N's poor turn rate that makes this paramount as it is its abysmal powerloading and limited WEP.

The range of the 47N is impressive.  Anything more than 75% fuel is too much unless you're doing long range bomber escort.  Before you take off, manually switch the fuel to the main tank, which has a nasty habit of leaking with only light damage.  Switch it back to automatic when it's nearly drained and you will have your aux and wing tanks to fall back on.

Surprisingly, the 47N maneuvers well against comparable fighters like the 190 series and P-51.  A notch of flaps can be deployed at high speed, which really helps to pitch the nose up against a maneuvering target.  Dropping flaps is also helpful to bring the nose over the top in a roping maneuver, for which I find more opportunities in the 47N than the 109 because everyone knows to avoid the 109's rope, but not the 47's. ;)

So, is the 47N worth its 5 ENY?  Given that someone like me can frequently land 5, 6, 7 and sometimes more kills without vulching, I suppose it is.  But it requires so much patience and discipline, and also humility.  If you get caught low and some n00b kills you with his SpitXVI, well...suck it up, that's going to happen from time to time.  Like the Ta-152, the other odd bird of the 5 ENY family, the 47N can really shine with the right piloting skills and is no mere ordinance dump-truck.
gavagai
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Offline trotter

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2009, 03:56:41 PM »
Just a thought Gav,

does draining the main fuel tank first have any weight distribution drawbacks? I can imagine all that fuel sloshing in the wing tanks can't be good for roll rate. There might be center of gravity issues along the centerline too. Or is the gross weight of the plane such that any fuel distribution weight is negligible?

Offline druski85

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2009, 04:03:01 PM »
I've been trying to justify 5 eny on that bird for a while, and truthfully cannot.  (Until you get above 20k :) ) That's a different story though.

As for fuel distribution, I find it a significantly more manueverable bird with empty wing tanks.  I'll risk losing fuel in the main for this increase in performance.  I know some folks like to leave a little in one tank in order to offset torque, but I've never found this to be beneficial.

Good luck with the Jug this tour :) I have mucho respect for those who can fly it well.   :rock

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2009, 04:08:54 PM »
Just a thought Gav,

does draining the main fuel tank first have any weight distribution drawbacks? I can imagine all that fuel sloshing in the wing tanks can't be good for roll rate. There might be center of gravity issues along the centerline too. Or is the gross weight of the plane such that any fuel distribution weight is negligible?

Yeah, that's a good point trotter.  Perhaps I exaggerated a bit; I tend to switch it back to automatic when I'm about to enter combat because I don't want to find myself dead-stick all of a sudden.  The thing is, I have taken damage to the main fuel tank before anything else so frequently it seems well justified to trade a little bit of roll rate.
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Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2009, 04:35:12 PM »
Hey guys, just a bit of clarification. The P-47N is the only Jug to have wing tanks, and those are only 93 gallons per wing (labeled as AUX in the game?). The 370 gallon main tank is still in the fuselage, so burning any fuel in the main first shouldn't have an appreciable effect on roll rate.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2009, 04:38:02 PM »
You get a D-40 and a N with the same fuel (i.e full on the D40 and no wing tanks on the N) and the N will outshine it. The stats are for full fuel, last I recall. That means the N will accelerate worse, climb worse, and turn worse, because it has about 500-1000lbs more weight onboard. With the same loadout, the N is better than the D-40.

As for ENY, it can fly across the map at 40k on internal fuel while carrying 3000lbs of ord (2500lbs and 10 rkts) and 3600 rounds of plane-shredding 50cal in an 8-gun configuration. Almost nothing can catch it in a dive, and it has uber flaps.

THAT is why it has an ENY of 5.

Offline druski85

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2009, 04:42:37 PM »
I've been trying to justify 5 eny on that bird for a while, and truthfully cannot.  (Until you get above 20k :) ) That's a different story though.

As for ENY, it can fly across the map at 40k on internal fuel while carrying 3000lbs of ord (2500lbs and 10 rkts) and 3600 rounds of plane-shredding 50cal in an 8-gun configuration. Almost nothing can catch it in a dive, and it has uber flaps.

THAT is why it has an ENY of 5.

Heh. 

And don't get me wrong -- its a powerful plane.  However with the fighting conditions as they exist in AH I personally don't think 5 is realistic.  10 perhaps...not 5.  Particuarly not with the D-40 at 20. 

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2009, 04:49:53 PM »
Funny, just getting to 40k with a full ord loadout (if that's possible) would take 40 of the 57 minutes of internal fuel. :rofl
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2009, 05:16:19 PM »
The P-47N has almost exactly the same flight time at 50% fuel as the D-40 does at 75% fuel. I did some tests once. Turns out, loaded for identical flight time the D-40 has a very slight advantage in climb on MIL power and none on WEP.

The P-47N is every bit the equal of the Pony-for five minutes. You have to protect that WEP for when you *really* need it, and that means hoarding E. And generally trying to enter combat abit higher where the MIL power is more competitive relative the other planes. All in all, I don't really think this plane needs to be ENY 5.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2009, 05:43:29 PM »
As for ENY, it can fly across the map at 40k on internal fuel while carrying 3000lbs of ord (2500lbs and 10 rkts) and 3600 rounds of plane-shredding 50cal in an 8-gun configuration. Almost nothing can catch it in a dive, and it has uber flaps.

THAT is why it has an ENY of 5.

I tried it offline, and it took me nearly 48 minutes to reach 37,000 ft, with WEP, and I only had 15 mins of fuel left.  Don't you think you exaggerated a wee bit? ;)
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Offline Becinhu

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2009, 06:05:05 PM »
perhaps he was air-launched from a b-29....OR...a F-18.
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Offline bj229r

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2009, 07:32:44 PM »
N is the only jug that can exist in the weeds, and that's just barely, as most folks will drop what they're doing to chase down a jug. Use the 5 min wep wisely. (I can see no reason why its ENY of 5 is lower than a P51's 8)
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Offline Serenity

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2009, 10:34:57 PM »
Gotta offer my $.02

I've grown fond of the Jug the last few tours for her looks, and Ive tried them all. By far my favorite is the D-11, and I really tend to avoid the N because, well, those clipped wings are smurfy. There's a lot here I agree with, and a lot I don't. As far as fighting, the November has some major advantages over the Deltas. She has speed on all of them, and can zoom a fair deal better, as well as having longer range.

BUT, if I'm going to fight one on one, give me a Delta any day. While they don't have the WEP and zoom, theyre much lighter aircraft, and down in the weeds, Ill shred a November with my Razorback. What it comes down to are your intentions. If you want to BnZ, take the november. But if you want to get down in the weeds, take a Delta. Shes GREAT at a rolling scissors, just keep that speed up for when the Spits try to bounce you.

Offline Fender16

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2009, 11:14:07 PM »
I fly the D-25 constantly and I dislike dog fighting above 7k in it.
Reason being is most enemy planes stay high to be able to dive on a target and have more E.
The P47 is great at causing over shoots.
Wait for them to dive in, get 600 or so on your six, pop a few hundred feet, 1 notch flaps, kill throttle, barrel roll, and they are sitting pretty in your gunsights.
The P47 is also forgiving as it will take a lot of bullets while you figure out what to do.
Best way to dogfight in a P47 is make them fight your fight. Don't try to turn with them, extend out and go for another merge (Merge, not HO, even though she excels at it).

It's a fantastic plane once you learn what it excels at.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Thoughts on the P-47N
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2009, 11:23:40 PM »
It is great at dumping E...but when you make them overshoot, what do you have? A 500mph target in guns range for .05 seconds before it zooms back up to 15K. Forcing overshoots as a lifestyle instead of guns defense is for living gunnery computers like Batfink.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."