An other ride along clip

[humble]

I haven't posted one of these in a long time. This happens to be a G2 in MWA. Nothing fancy or special here (was a hop focused on flying for "score"/living)....I dug it up for another thread but thought it was worth linking here. You dont need a lot of alt or to fly "B&Z" to be in control...if your SA (and luck) are decent.http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film137.ahf

[BnZs]

(and luck) are decent.http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film137.ahf

That puts me out of contention right there.

[dkff49]

That puts me out of contention right there.

Yes but you are BnZ so you have to be the exception. 


sorry not as funny as I orignally thought. 

I haven't posted one of these in a long time. This happens to be a G2 in MWA. Nothing fancy or special here (was a hop focused on flying for "score"/living)....I dug it up for another thread but thought it was worth linking here. You dont need a lot of alt or to fly "B&Z" to be in control...if your SA (and luck) are decent.http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film137.ahf

I have no luck either but it does not keep me from trying

[Bosco123]

Just takes good SA in a 109. Personally, don't like to pick in a 109, too hard to see. I get down knowing that I have shots that I would much rather take.
In a Temp, it's a diffrent story, much easier guns, better aim as well.
KI also another plane I don't normally pick in either. Guns aren't good enough to go and miss a whole bunch.

[humble]

The plane itself is largely irrelevant, obviously some planes are better suited then others but they all work. I could fly an SBD like that and do reasonably well in a mixed environment. The variables will change and the slower the plane the more important your big picture SA. Nothing worse then ending up as the last man standing low and slow in an early war T&B ride.

SA is the same in any plane, you can fly any plane in the set that way...the primary issue being that the slower the plane the less flexibility you have. The moment you view it as your "having shots" is the moment you lose effectiveness. While you can maneuver to your advantage the reality is that you don't create shots, you exploit   the opportunities presented. The moment you start to work for shots your dead and just don't know it.

As noted above I never fly like this unless I'm helping someone, its simply to boring to me. It is however a basic fundamental of the game that is greatly overlooked. None of that is picking by my definition, I'm basically E fighting in a furball that worked its way back and forth. I never sat on another fight or intentionally hung a fellow greenie out to dry. When required I exercised good game play and worked in concert with other friendlies. I was shot at by at least 4 planes and often had cons on my 6 within gunnery range.

To me this is the "missing link" in the game for most. Because a majority of players cant master this aspect they look up to those that can but dont ever evolve beyond it. It's easier to rack up 100 kills like this then notch a single scalp vs an elite stick (read Greebo. Blukitty etc) in an even fight. If this was all that there was to the game I'd have quit 12 years ago.

[Bosco123]

To elaborate on what snaphook was saying, I have a visual for what he was saying. I made it today in the LW defending a base on the big map. 109s are heard to fly low and slow, but, when you can get something in a vertical situation, your odds turn on your side, with almost any other plane in the game. Only problem I have is against KIs and Spits. Spits aren't as bad as KIs, they fight much superior in the vertical, than most 109s (other than the K4).
There is a lot of good points here, ammo management. If you noticed, I didn't take gondies in a G6. Also, there was a nice reversal on a zeke that tried to pull with me. I was much slower and was able to get the quick shot off on him, to light him off.
The best part about it is, there is a 2v1 against me, in a G6, and these other 2 F6Fs. I fought them off for about 2 mins. or so, then one of them hit my oil and I was forced to rtb. I was constantly fighting on an advantage if you noticed, the one that was on the attack, I reversed him and got my advantage back. The one that came back on the advantage I reversed him and was on the advantage again. When one extended though, I wasn't paying attention to where he went, were he hit me up pretty good. Also, I was constantly fighting these two F6Fs in the vertical. I know that F6Fs or F4Us cannot fight well in the vertical, and thats what I took advantage on.

http://www.mediafire.com/?5moydxxfoai

[humble]

Bosco, I watched the 1st 8 min or so...

1) The setup and shot on the zeke was outstanding, thats the type of clip I'd cut that out and post it, almost a batfink caliber reverse.

2) No question your upping from a capped field and getting offensive and into the flow so there is some value overall...

however let me make the following observations from a former trainers perspective.

A) You get target fixated very easily, the F4U was obviously a new kid on the block, you had him in zoom forever with no SA update
B) You easily got sucked into a furball where you were defensive and ineffective. The one timer on racdog(?) was nice but just that...
C) You took fire early due to poor SA and a lack of maneuvering
D) You got bogged down into a fight beyond your ability to manage with minimal SA by the 6 min mark from a well established position after you took care of the zeke...

I think your intent and effort should be applauded and encouraged, what you need to contemplate (IMO) is exactly what your goal is when you post a film here. Ideally the clip will have a single focal point that another pilot can apply, thats why most clips are edited to a single segment of a longer flight/fight. No question you've got tremendous potential and a genuine desire to both improve and help others.

Lets try and put your clip in context with mine from the perspective of a newer player looking for info and advice. My intent was to show the realities of air combat in a multi player setting. "Dog fighting" was not a historic reality and if your attempting to "fly to live" its not really relevant unless your forced into it. Ideally you'd just bounce the unwary and go home, well in a game its somewhat unrealistic but you can maintain speed, awareness and operational control of your immediate surroundings. Now this clip was an actual training sortie, its intent was to help lay a foundation so that the player in question could progress beyond it and begin to apply the stuff he really wants me to teach him.

So we have a film that shows that very little true ACM is required to be an "ace". Any pilot in the game with 60 days of experience can take that clip and apply it to obtain a 20/1 or better K/D ratio within 90 days (if you don't die of boredom first). That does not mean the clip you posted doesn't have value but it also has areas of potential confusion and questionable tactical choices. 95% of what I film is unsuitable for the very same reasons. The simple truth is most of the time I fly stupid and have fun, for someone looking to learn emulating that isn't productive.

There is a reason that the training corps has to be so selective, its not what your trying to teach or capable of teaching that limits you. It's what you unintentionally communicate that has the potential for harm. I think that if you have a genuine interest the raw ability is certainly their, but the learning curve involved in learning to teach is often tougher then learning to do

[BnZs]

So we have a film that shows that very little true ACM is required to be an "ace". Any pilot in the game with 60 days of experience can take that clip and apply it to obtain a 20/1 or better K/D ratio within 90 days (if you don't die of boredom first).

You've got to quit exaggerating.

I "fly to live" some % of the time, am not an idiot, and I've never come close to 20/1 on the K/D ratio.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually posting a 20 K/D, unless it was Zazen once.

[humble]

You've got to quit exaggerating.

I "fly to live" some % of the time, am not an idiot, and I've never come close to 20/1 on the K/D ratio.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually posting a 20 K/D, unless it was Zazen once.

Actually no, its not hard at all. Now that might be awful boring and it might not be huge numbers. Back when I was doing those training runs regularly I'd normally go 20-25 with no deaths on any given tour, now the rest of my numbers would be normal for me. You can fly 100 hops that way and never have any damage. Now its a skill like anything else and it takes time to tune your SA up, it also would require not engaging at all some flights or not even sortieing at times. Lots of score potatos fly just like that and then switch to attack mode. This is an old clip from a while ago. It was a ride along but the guy didnt have a mic so I wasn't commenting. If I recall it was one of 3 hops I did in the pony that night. Total was something like 14 kills for the 3...http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/pony%20hop.ahf

I haven't watched that one in a long time but it should be fundamentally identical to this one. The issue here is nothing other then learning the SA envelope for the plane your in and being disciplined enough to respect those limits.

[Lusche]

So we have a film that shows that very little true ACM is required to be an "ace". Any pilot in the game with 60 days of experience can take that clip and apply it to obtain a 20/1 or better K/D ratio within 90 days (if you don't die of boredom first). That does not mean the clip you posted doesn't have value but it also has areas of potential confusion and questionable tactical choices. 95% of what I film is unsuitable for the very same reasons. The simple truth is most of the time I fly stupid and have fun, for someone looking to learn emulating that isn't productive.

OMG...

that claim is so much away from reality I am almost speechless. 

 I think you, having reached a skill level way above the average pilot, are not aware anymore what "little" skill actually is. 

Fact is, while to obtain a a 20-1 k/D you doesn't need to be the "best" dogfighter in AH, it's way beyond the capability of most AH players, especially the ones only flying for 60 days only. Even when having seen this clip and trying to follow it. It needs at least a good command of your plane, a very good SA and good marksmanship.

Many vets may be able to do it, but the average new player? No way. Any player? Never.

I remember the times when I was new. I know I was considerable above average as a two-weeker (and the stats showed), but even after having studied some very impressive similar clips, I wasn't able to reproduce it for a long time, even though I was really trying hard to boost my K/D in that way.

[Bosco123]

I would take a look around the 16min. mark snap, thats were the SA comes in with the 2v1 F6F fight. You said that you only watched the first 8 mins. of it right?

[humble]

I've probably trained 50+ guys who've done it with little problem for periods of time (now this is going back a ways obviously). Most guys I got as a trainer were fairly new (lets say 60-120 days). The truly new players went to others and the really good sticks spent more time furballing with DMF, Citibria, Nash and a host of others that were regulars. The guys that got funneled to me invariably were decent sticks with limited dogfighting skills. Initially the focus was on ACM etc but as you and all the current trainers surely know the frustration level can get higher. The "trainee" takes his new found skills out to the playground and gets spanked. All of a sudden even though he's "better" he's doing worse, so I learned that as soon as I got them I needed to explain that ACM and the application of ACM is different. Further that a 1 on 1 fight (dueling or otherwise) is a contest of sorts and is different then actual "real life" air combat. While I spent 80%+ of my time teaching intermediate ACM (about my limit then and now) the other 20% or so was on this stuff. From my perspective this is actually a much simpler concept to learn (and teach). with the higher numbers the % of true 1 on 1's diminishes and the over all target environment is much higher. In the old days you had to learn to fight 1 on 1 and "small melee" engagements to get kills (AW FR at least), in here you don't ever have to fight 1 on 1 or at a disadvantage if you don't want.

Now the "60 day" statement could be misleading, I'm orienting it at the pilot with an average of 2+ hours a day and a minimum of 20-30 hours with a quality trainer. So we're looking at a 120 hr sim pilot with some structured training and a serious desire to implement those specific tactics. What i found is that few of the really good ones stuck with it more then a few weeks or a month before moving more toward the true furballer mentality. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said impressive, to me neither of those clips are. The moment you inject anything other then drive by muggings into the equation you go from scoring to fighting. I cant fly like that unless I have a reason, its just distasteful. To me its always been a stepping stone to the "artistry of air combat".

Now obviously you need the basic flying skills and the ability fly "looking out the window". Also basic comfort in a particular plane and then roughly 90 days of applied SA...again thats just 1 persons opinion but its based on actual past history as a trainer. In the current state of the MA I'd say its even easier if your not side dependent since its easy to fly with the numbers. Now it might take you 40 hops for 20 kills initially and as mentioned in the original post golden bb's and other anomalies can get you but over time you can average 2 kills a sortie with minimal risk IMO.

I think the real issue for most is going beyond whats on that clip, I'd tell trainee's to count any sortie where you took a bullet hole a death. The object is to not get shot period. To me the real difficulty is not the flying its the disipline, especially for gunnery. You can see 3-4 shots that I just missed but didn't chase. To never chase a shot, never put yourself at risk, never give in to the thrill of the fight is exceptionally hard. As always I've got no problem flying a hop or two for anyone interested anytime you see me up (unless its a SAPP night or the squaddies are doing something {you can always still tag along}).

A while back I flew a couple of 190 hops to show how you can fly it as more of an E fighter/semi furballer. Not truly a fly to live clip but you can see the same variables at work. This is where the above style breaks down as you apply true fighting to the equation. This is what normally happens IMO. You increase the fun and the challenge at the expense of sticking to the rules applied above. Now in my opinion this has a lot more "pilot stuff" but eliminates the ability to purely score...but is loads more fun.http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/190%20hop.ahf

[humble]

I would take a look around the 16min. mark snap, thats were the SA comes in with the 2v1 F6F fight. You said that you only watched the first 8 mins. of it right?

I'll try and take a look, but understand that to someone looking to learn the entire clip is a teaching tool...so you've got guys abandoning SA becoming target fixated because you did.

[Black Jack]

Thanks Snap for letting me fly with you like that and try to learn more. I got the same film but watching yours with ur recorded views helps me a lot to see how you can improve ur SA, how much you look around, how much u look forward etc. You can learn a lot by riding along with a better pilot than you are.   Just want to add that Snap was trying to show me how to survive in that plane since i'm just starting to fly with it. He said that after i spend more time in it i will learn how to push it more and then be able to be a lot more aggressive with it. I hope it will come in time. 

[humble]

It was my pleasure, I hope it helps you....feel free to ride along any time. Your probably better equipped to answer this type of question then I am. As lusche said its been a long long time since I was a baby seal. I've probably flown 300+ sorties like that over the years and almost invariably the comments are how different it was then they imagined. I've always believed the issues are conceptual, we can envision ACM a lot easier then SA. So when we talk about applied SA and flying to live most people envision high alt B&Z style flying which is not really effective IMO. I'm almost never over 10k when I fly like this and rarely ever get hit let alone shot down (it obviously does happen at times). Any general comments you've got on the topic might be helpful....