An other ride along clip

[Bosco123]

I did get target fixated. Most of the time it dosn't take 2 passes and 6 cannon rounds to kill a plane, this one was an oddity. Knowing that there was no one that  wasn't fighting, I took the advatage before everyone else jumped on the plane I was shooting down.

[humble]

You ignored a higher plane to dive on a low one and flew under the other inbound cons you turned from to initially "engage" the 2 F4U's and the F6F over the water. Your flying toward the target (for the inbounds) and vulnerable to anyone rolling in or off target or looking to disengage from a higher fight. When you pulled the hi yoyo reverse over the town you had no SA at all at what was your most dangerous point of exposure. I'm not trying to knock the flying or the clip but pointing out that viewed as a training clip its got tremendous flaws....especially in an SA driven thread.

[Bosco123]

There was a friendly co-alt. with them and I knew from before the video, that he would have taken care for them. I also took the chance they were all high because they were dropping ords on the feild, which they were doing the whole time.

[Anaxogoras]

I enjoyed watching your fight with Shane's P-39.  After flying it myself today I can appreciate the challenge of flying it against something like the 109G-2.

[humble]

I enjoyed watching your fight with Shane's P-39.  After flying it myself today I can appreciate the challenge of flying it against something like the 109G-2.

I like the D and hate the Q, no question he was at a disadvantage there. Going back to Lusches comments that little sequence is one of the "talking points" on the clip. I think that were this breaks down as a training tool is in the understanding of what the pilot (in this case me obviously) is thinking at the time. From memory we had just disengaged and were flying outward with some pursuit. I had enough alt/E to make a pass but my mind set was on not getting bogged down. Going back to Tango's excellent thread that segment was a classic 2 circle fight. I cant speak for Shane but in my mind he's initiating a classic vertical 2 circle fight from the inferior position. I cant afford to get cute since my SA is limited and being caught high & slow is a bad thing. So instead I cut the gas and worked to create a front quarter snapshot while keeping enough speed to egress. On the flip side Shane appeared to be sitting on the FQ shot looking to convert my attempt to a reverse. As often in an encounter like this I didn't land my snap shot and he didn't quite get his reverse.

Its very common to hear "HO complaints" vs the accomplished E fighters, mostly IMO because few pilots recognize the 2 circle fight and realize that it is by definition a battle of FQ shots. Its the true "gunfighters duel" in that if you don't clear leather 1st you get whacked. Now under normal circumstances I'd have fought that fight completely differently. I always enjoy the training aspect of those types of flights but actually flying like that normally holds minimal interest for me....

[Zazen13]

You've got to quit exaggerating.

I "fly to live" some % of the time, am not an idiot, and I've never come close to 20/1 on the K/D ratio.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually posting a 20 K/D, unless it was Zazen once.

In AW once I had 587 kills w/ 3 deaths for an entire camp. Two deaths were augers that gave no kill credit and 1 was to a bomber gunship (w/ 5 human gunners). I don't care how "timid" you fly or how choosy you are in your engagements, especially, if like myself, you do not vulch. That was no easy accomplishment. My goal was always a deathless camp, which I was never able to achieve, although I was the #1 Ranking Fighter pilot in AWFR for the better part of a decade.

In AW rank was really just a function of points which increased exponentially per kill as you lived consecutively and therefore K/D ratio. In AH on the other hand you have the K/T metric (among others) to use as a counterweight to evaluate the efficacy of a person's K/D. Although K/T is also a reflection of other things, such as the climbrate and speed of your rides, the amount of base defense and CV attack/defense you do, it's also a fair indicator of relative timidity.

For example, Pilot A could post a 100 to 1 K/D ratio but only get 1 K/H. That is not being effective, flying around for an hour to find some poor afk soul then run home to land the pelt is nothing. However, if Pilot B posts a 20 to 1 K/D and gets 8+ K/H, that's HIGHLY effective, top 1-2% calibre of effectiveness. I don't care who's actual fighter rank is higher, Pilot A sucks, Pilot B is great, even though Pilot A has a 500% better K/D ratio. This is especially true if Pilot B gets those figures without vulching or using 262's.

I have been playing the tactical fighter game for as long as I can remember. I can assure you it's not as easy as it looks. In AH you have huge hordes, deadly AA, jets, rockets, HO's , rams, buff formation lazers, runway vulchers, trophy headhunters and gobs of La7 drivers that linger around the periphery of a fight just looking for you to be rtb bingo ammo/gas so they can try to run you down. Most of that was nonexistent in the AW era.

There's an incredible amount of skill required to post something like a 20/1 K/D with an 8+ K/T without vulching or resorting to buff hunting with jets. Anyone who tells you differently has never tried it, is lying and/or is completely clueless. By my count there's maybe 20 people in the game right now that I feel confident have the SA, gunnery, flying skill and the all important mental tactical discipline to perform at that level of effectiveness, if they chose to do so, without the benefit of vulching or using jets.

[humble]

We're introducing an awful lot of variables into the equation. Both kills over time and gunnery are in no way relevant to the statement I made and neither does "score" overall. Historically I'd say my k/h flying that way is between 3 and 6 per hour but I could see it approaching 8 or being under 1. Some variables like collisions are a very real concern. Leaving the training hops aside, the only other time I really flew this way was in the Rangoon Scenario as a scout. IMO that is as close to a "real life" counter part as you can get in a game since your one on many but have a tasking order that forces you to remain somewhat engaged. Only death I had was flying into a zeke that warped right in front of me.

The simple truth is that flying that way is relatively easy to learn but not easy to maintain, primarily because the pilot who can learn it rarely wont continue to try and evolve beyond it. I've always felt that at its highest form you could fly the "coffee break" theory, 1 kill on the dawn patrol and one at dusk. 60 kills on 60 sorties...

[Zazen13]

We're introducing an awful lot of variables into the equation. Both kills over time and gunnery are in no way relevant to the statement I made and neither does "score" overall. Historically I'd say my k/h flying that way is between 3 and 6 per hour but I could see it approaching 8 or being under 1. Some variables like collisions are a very real concern. Leaving the training hops aside, the only other time I really flew this way was in the Rangoon Scenario as a scout. IMO that is as close to a "real life" counter part as you can get in a game since your one on many but have a tasking order that forces you to remain somewhat engaged. Only death I had was flying into a zeke that warped right in front of me.

The simple truth is that flying that way is relatively easy to learn but not easy to maintain, primarily because the pilot who can learn it rarely wont continue to try and evolve beyond it. I've always felt that at its highest form you could fly the "coffee break" theory, 1 kill on the dawn patrol and one at dusk. 60 kills on 60 sorties...

Three kills/Hour is 1 kill every 20 minutes of flying. That's not effective by any stretch of the imagination. For someone to continue to fly like that with that little success per unit time would require a tolerance for boredom approaching the supernatural, which the current generation is definitely not noted for. You simply have to factor in K/T, to put K/D into perspective and context. I could train a 3 year old chimpanzee to get 3 kills per hour simply waiting for people to auto-alt off fields, that's not a "style" or a "method", it's 3rd Degree paper tiger cheese-puffery.

No one begins the game E-Fighting. It's an incredibly counter-intuitive and indirect way to approach air combat. The vast majority, even if they are flying a plane like a P51 initially, have no concept of E fighting per se, they may try a BnZ pass or two when their E state is high, but they quickly blow their E and end up turn-fighting, I see it 20+ times a day in the MA. Most quickly get frustrated of that and get into a pure TnB plane and go from there. I am a fairly observant person and I have never in my 18+ years of this seen a person go from total noob to multi-year vet using the E-Fighting methodology exclusively with any kind of effectiveness. I don't think it would even be possible unless they were professionally trained in the real world or by some miracle of comprehension read and understood the practical application of Shaw's prior to even playing or something like that.

[humble]

No you don't, the comment was specifically that you can easily obtain a 20/1 K/D ratio. One of the 1st things I said is that boredom and a lack of challenge normally preclude this as normal practice. Now the clip I filmed today was a 38 hop with 4 kills in 26 minutes or so, when I roll an SBD I'd expect a lower total and a longer time frame but I could certainly do 20/1 in an SBD if I could stand the boredom aspect...

BTW you can train any reasonably proficient student to E fight in 60 days...I've done it plenty of times. None of the clips I'm putting up for this topic have any advanced "dog fighting" skills or really any subtle E fighting. Everything is IMO easily duplicatable by the majority of players in the game.

[Zazen13]

No you don't, the comment was specifically that you can easily obtain a 20/1 K/D ratio. One of the 1st things I said is that boredom and a lack of challenge normally preclude this as normal practice. Now the clip I filmed today was a 38 hop with 4 kills in 26 minutes or so, when I roll an SBD I'd expect a lower total and a longer time frame but I could certainly do 20/1 in an SBD if I could stand the boredom aspect...

The ideal situation to put up that kind of total presents itself only a couple of times a week in the MA. You can't take an isolated run of a hop or two and extrapolate that into an entire tour. You'd have to show me someone at the end of a tour. Because to do that, they would have to have had continued success in far less than ideal circumstances on a continued and constistant basis. It at those times that they would likely end up having to frequently think and fight themselves out of quagmires . It is at those times that the precision of a surgeon is required. I could fly in an ideal situation for a hop or two and get 10-12 kills in my Typhoon for each 30 minute hop, that does not mean I would be capable of that under normal engagement circumstances, which of course I am not.

[humble]

The ideal situation to put up that kind of total presents itself only a couple of times a week in the MA. You can't take an isolated run of a hop or two and extrapolate that into an entire tour. You'd have to show me someone at the end of a tour. Because to do that, they would have to have had continued success in far less than ideal circumstances on a continued and constistant basis. It at those times that they would likely end up having to frequently think and fight themselves out of quagmires . It is at those times that the precision of a surgeon is required. I could fly in an ideal situation for a hop or two and get 10-12 kills in my Typhoon for each 30 minute hop, that does not mean I would be capable of that under normal engagement circumstances, which of course I am not.

I don't agree at all, circumstances will always vary but pilot discipline can be constant. The results will vary based on external factors but the pilot can maintain suitable rules of engagement based on plane type. The information we have available far exceeds what was available IRL, this is contrasted against the often historically unbalanced plane sets and number variations. The bottom line is that it is not difficult to avoid less then ideal circumstances.

[Zazen13]

I don't agree at all, circumstances will always vary but pilot discipline can be constant. The results will vary based on external factors but the pilot can maintain suitable rules of engagement based on plane type. The information we have available far exceeds what was available IRL, this is contrasted against the often historically unbalanced plane sets and number variations. The bottom line is that it is not difficult to avoid less then ideal circumstances.

That might be true if tactical discipline and adhering to a set "Rules of Engagement" alone were all it took to "effective" (good K/D achieved within a reasonable amount of time). But, that's only one facet of being an "effective" tactical pilot. The pilot also has to have phenomenal SA, nearly flawless decision making based upon that SA, very good gunnery and at least moderate flying skill accompanied by excellent comprehension and execution of Energy Fighting techniques.

I see lots of people doing everything right from a tactical standpoint, but are as useless as nipples on a bull because they lack one or more of the other components to being an "effective" tactical pilot. One of two things happen, they get bored/frustrated and go back to TnB'ing or they quit fightering all together.

Initially learning how to fight by attempting to use Energy Fighting techniques tactically is no good, the shooting opportunities are too brief and infrequent. When I was a trainer I would instruct my pupils to concentrate on getting good at killing first then worry about the living part much later. The key to that is trigger-time and flying a plane you can "latch on" to someones six with. In that way everyone you fight is "training" you to perform maneuvers and giving you experience shooting at different angles of deflection thereby building up your mental library and repertoire of moves and shots.

[AWwrgwy]

This is funny. 

Snaphook says, "a 20/1 kill ratio could be easily obtained by even someone new if he had the discipline to follow a set rule of engagement and flying style, but he would probably die of boredom doing so."

Zazen says, "a 20/1 kill ratio is not so easy because the rookie would get bored and resort to T'n B instead if disciplined E-fighting."


Same thing, isn't it?



wrongway

[Zazen13]

Zazen says, "a 20/1 kill ratio is not so easy because the rookie would get bored and resort to T'n B instead if disciplined E-fighting."






wrongway

I'm not saying the newbie would revert to TnB because he got bored during the process of actually obtaining a 20 to 1 K/D ratio. I said there's not a snowball's chance in hell he would be able to obtain it to begin with, most especially while maintaining anything vaguely resembling a reasonable K/T (5+ Kills/Hour at the bare minimum) . He would quickly get bored from trying in vain. Inevitably, out of sheer frustration, he would switch back to the much more straightforward TnB style of play..

Find me one "new" player with a 20 to 1 K/D and 5+ Kills/Hour...I'll save you the time and suspense, you won't be able to because they simply don't exist, never have and never will, it just isn't possible short of 2nd account vulching or other such subterfuge. I browsed the list of fighter pilots, I only saw 1 or 2 grizzled 10+ year vets with anything vaguely resembling that kind of effectiveness. One of those is a known "career vulcher" and the other has a high percentage of kills in a 262, so both had to "augment" themselves artifically to obtain that degree of effectiveness.

[Dawger]

Going back to Tango's excellent thread that segment was a classic 2 circle fight. I cant speak for Shane but in my mind he's initiating a classic vertical 2 circle fight from the inferior position. I cant afford to get cute since my SA is limited and being caught high & slow is a bad thing. So instead I cut the gas and worked to create a front quarter snapshot while keeping enough speed to egress. On the flip side Shane appeared to be sitting on the FQ shot looking to convert my attempt to a reverse. As often in an encounter like this I didn't land my snap shot and he didn't quite get his reverse.

Its very common to hear "HO complaints" vs the accomplished E fighters, mostly IMO because few pilots recognize the 2 circle fight and realize that it is by definition a battle of FQ shots. Its the true "gunfighters duel" in that if you don't clear leather 1st you get whacked. Now under normal circumstances I'd have fought that fight completely differently. I always enjoy the training aspect of those types of flights but actually flying like that normally holds minimal interest for me....

I'm not trying to be a jerk but I don't think you quite understand what  two circle geometry is if you are talking about the fight at 10:15 to 11:30 ish in the original film. That was classic nose to nose or one circle geometry. A one circle fight is determined by turn radius and your description of  the fight is one of trying to minimize turn radius. So I watched the film and it is classic one circle geometry, not 2 circle. I think you may have the two terms backwards.

If you are coming nose to nose in multiple guns passes, its one circle. Flat scissors, classic multiple immelman merges and rolling scissors are all one circle.

Two circle geometry requires lift vector 180 out of phase with the bandit at the merge. In the vertical tht would be one goes up and one goes down. Its almost impossible to get into a two circle vertical fight below 5000 feet