Aircraft crash in WNY

[MrRiplEy[H]]

In that UK incident another Bombardier front undercarriage collapsed. Just last week I traveled in the same type of aircraft and my flight was delayed because the plane had to return due to nose wheel not going up on takeoff.

http://iltalehti.goodmood.net/iltalehti?player_video_id=28046906

I'm starting to think flying a Bombardier might not be a very smart choice.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

There was Empire in TX on Jan 27th, but cargo doesn't count does it?

[Cobra516]

Wow, that looks bad.  The freight dogs don't get any love from the media when things go bad.

What's the story behind that? 

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Landed in freezing fog, ran off the runway and caught on fire. Creew escaped safely. Dono what the cause was, but here's the "ice" & ATR in the same sentence again 

[mechanic]

Really all this stuff goes to show how skilled the average day-job pilot is. The fact that millions of aircraft leave the Earth and return safe every week is testement to our level of arrogance as a spieces and also our ability. We didnt throw it all in and evolve wings, we laughed at nature and said 'We can have it all'. We cant, but we come damn close. wtg us.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Latest report says the Dash crew went against regulations and kept the autopilot on despite ice buildup.

[Sundowner]

Now they are saying flying with AP on in icing conditions was not against regs. It was only an NTSB "recommendation".

More details on aircraft attitudes just before impact.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/15/buffalo.plane.crash/index.html

Regards,
Sun

[CAP1]

there was an article in my local paper saying they were headed opposite of runway heading.

[humble]

Humble, I don't have any beef with you but you keep heading down this "pilot error" road pretty doggedly.  You applied it to Roselawn, in error, and you seem to be anticipating it in the current case.

The phrase "pilot error" is virtually meaningless if we consider anything more than the vaugest outlines of an accident or incident.  There is no element of correctability in "pilot error".  It can't be fixed.  Now if one says pilot errror, because the pilot had insufficient training;  or pilot error because the pilot was drunk; you have something that can be addressed.  So when you prospectively assess "100% pilot error" in this case permit me to disagree with both your phraseology and methodology.

I'm not "applying it in error", I'm relaying comments from pilots with 5000+ hrs PIC in Dash-8 400's as well as other TP's. Standard OP for a Dash-8 400 in severe ice is minimum speed of 190 knts. Recognizing that no severe ice condition was formally recognized the airplane speed of 134 knots is still way to low for the conditions. No question that a lot of elements are still unknown but it is pretty obvious that something unusual occurred. Most of these guys discounted a tail stall before the feb 15 brief...

The guys who fly these things for a living are the ones speculating the most right now. Icing provides a safe and easy answer for them, but it also doesnt fit anything available from the NTSB so far. The more information that comes out the more confused they seem to be. The 31 degree pitch up appears to totally eliminate a tail stall. Asymetirical icing (pardon spelling) is current speculation but again its a known possibility and SOP would be higher speed and no flaps in moderate icing.

[humble]

Dawger,

I agree completely, whats funny to me as SLF is that the guys like you and Frenchy who fly for a living are a lot harsher then the NTSB on pilots. The guys flying the TP's are the ones putting the focus on the crew (both here and prior). In this one the guys flying jets are being told they are clueless and to butt out. The TP drivers are commenting along the lines of your post. The posts from the dash-8 drivers are both looking for more from NTSB but also commenting on what appear to me significant variations from correct procedure....

[Casca]

I'm not "applying it in error", I'm relaying comments from pilots with 5000+ hrs PIC in Dash-8 400's as well as other TP's. Standard OP for a Dash-8 400 in severe ice is minimum speed of 190 knts. Recognizing that no severe ice condition was formally recognized the airplane speed of 134 knots is still way to low for the conditions. No question that a lot of elements are still unknown but it is pretty obvious that something unusual occurred. Most of these guys discounted a tail stall before the feb 15 brief...

The guys who fly these things for a living are the ones speculating the most right now. Icing provides a safe and easy answer for them, but it also doesnt fit anything available from the NTSB so far. The more information that comes out the more confused they seem to be. The 31 degree pitch up appears to totally eliminate a tail stall. Asymetirical icing (pardon spelling) is current speculation but again its a known possibility and SOP would be higher speed and no flaps in moderate icing.

I pointed out that you applied the term "in error" with respect to Roselawn.  You seem to be conflating the accidents above. Regarding Roselawn I can believe an anonymous poster on a BBS or the NTSB Blue Cover.  Hmmm...lemme think...

Regarding the current accident I'm not sure why you are so gung ho to hang the (convienently dead) crew?  Human factors might well come into play ultimately but I guess that's what makes S P E C L U A T I O N interesting.

[Chalenge]

I am speculating that the AP was still on when the icing problem made itself known and the pilot mistakenly tried to right the plane without first turning off the AP. If that is in fact the case it could very well make the plane unrecoverable without considerable time to effect trim changes.

[Bodhi]

Nice to see the experts are hashing this one out...   

[Serenity]

Regarding the current accident I'm not sure why you are so gung ho to hang the (convienently dead) crew?  Human factors might well come into play ultimately but I guess that's what makes S P E C L U A T I O N interesting.

I've got to agree with Humble. Something was obviously VERY not right. There was nothing unimaginable here, no freak storm. These were relatively normal conditions. As was indicated, the flaps should NOT have been deployed. I understand the statement that the last mistake may not have been the root cause of the accident, but it's obviously a MAJOR speed-bump and the deciding factor in whether you end up on a runway or in the ground.

I'll admit, I've never flown through icing (We just don't have it here in the tropics) but there are other major concerns we have. We have an active volcano I have flown near which has it's own complications. We have nasty winds. Not ice, no, but the point is, we have dangers here, and we have procedures to remain safe while flying in that environment. And if a plane crashes as a result of failing to follow procedure, then it IS pilot error. Now, if all we are looking for is something to point the finger at, we have it. But if we want to avoid this happening again, then we do need to dig deeper and find other things that could have complicated the situation, things that CAN be rectified. But as far as the ultimate cause, it sounds like pilot error.

[Chalenge]

Nice to see the experts are hashing this one out...   

People all over the country in dentists offices barber shops and other waiting rooms are giving their opinions yet you expect people from flight simulator games to remain silent?