Fighting Spitfires

[BnZs]

1. The OP described a situation that sounded like he had a SpitV somewhere back there with no closure. My advice to him (I thought I made it clear enough) was to use the fact that the P-51 can climb respectably at a speed faster than the SpitV can run level to keep the Spit at arms length, gain some E, then turnaround and kill with E tactics. In ~3-5 minutes you can be almost 5K higher AND faster, which is more than enough. Its what I did the last time I killed a SpitV with a Pony.

In a situation where the thing is diving on you with plenty of closure, Steve's advice is sound. The Spit is going to get you anyway if he's got a clue, but what else are you going to do, drop the stick and get a coke? I don't think so.

2. What's wrong with telling him to come back in a Spit, if it gets him actually fighting? Isn't that what we want? The OP voiced a distaste for ever making a tactical withdrawal under any circumstances. A P-51 is about the worst choice for someone with those preferences, because its major strength relative most of the LW planeset is the ability to choose its engagements. A Spit is a far better choice if he wants to stay and fight it out vs. anything under any circumstances with a good chance. As is almost every fighter plane in the set except for the Fw-190 series.

3. *I* don't complain about P-51Ds running when appropriate. In fact, there are times when I'm doing some base defense in a Spit/La or something of the like, everyone around me is in similar rides, and there is one P-51 left who decides to get the heck out of Dodge. During these times, I'll sometimes hear someone say "Look at the Pony ruuuuuuunnnn". And then I just have to roll my eyes and say on range something to the effect of..."Yeah...what a pansy...doesn't want to fight all 17 of us brave souls...."

The P-51 who HOs from a 500mph dive and then heads for the horizon and knows nothing of using his E to his advantage...well, kind of annoying sometimes, but if they are not flying their plane to its potential, no skin off my nose.

When I go into a fight I do consider I'm the better pilot. You have to have confindence in your plane and abilities. If not you'll be running everywhere all the time. BnZs advise to the guy was run away and come back in a spitfire basically.That's the kind of mind set that sucks in this game.Learn to use what you got. Don't come at me with all these stats as excuses of why you don't want to fight. People come to this bbs all the time and complain about running ponys and what advise does the OP get?.....run away or climb to outer space until the guy breaks off from boredom.
I get on here and tell the guy to turn and fight, and I'm wrong because WideWing says so?   Well I got news for ya sports fans, 90% of the spit pilots around here don't fly very well. Several do, but most don't. I kill 3 times as many spits in a 51 then kill me and I don't do that by turning tail and running.

[Anaxogoras]

2. What's wrong with telling him to come back in a Spit, if it gets him actually fighting?

We have enough Spits as it is, that's what's wrong with it!   How about a Ki-84, Yak-9U, 109F-4/G2, F4U or...you get the idea.   There are so many competitive rides to choose from for mixing it up, but we see 50% Spitfires among those who want to fight in close.

[BnZs]

We have enough Spits as it is, that's what's wrong with it!   How about a Ki-84, Yak-9U, 109F-4/G2, F4U or...you get the idea.   There are so many competitive rides to choose from for mixing it up, but we see 50% Spitfires among those who want to fight in close.

Well, the "Spit" part was kind of words put in my mouth anyway...but the point stands though, if you want to engage everything that comes along in co-E angles fights instead of choosing your engagements, its a little nutty to click on the P-51 in the hangar.

[Anaxogoras]

Well, the "Spit" part was kind of words put in my mouth anyway...but the point stands though, if you want to engage everything that comes along in co-E angles fights instead of choosing your engagements, its a little nutty to click on the P-51 in the hangar.

With that I agree!

[Hoffman]

I thank everyone for the advice.  But I do feel the need to explain a couple of things.

First off, if I just wanted to turn and burn I'd build up my perks and play around in a U4 Corsair all day. If all I want to do was zoom in fire a couple of bullets and be gone I'd fly a 190.  I want a plane that in the right conditions can excel at either, but takes a good deal of skill to make those conditions appear, and requires excellent gunnery or you'll wind up toasted.  To me, that is the P-51.  In a corsair I can always hang on someone's 6 until they give me the shot I want.  Same deal in a 109 I can easily dictate the fight into a turn, scissor, or hang on their 6 until I'm 20 ft. away before finally deciding to shoot, or just climb away and laugh as they try to keep up.  I want something more challenging than that.  I want an aircraft that can't stay with another all day long, the P-51 can stick with most aircraft for a short time-period, but past that time she quickly loses any advantage.
The corsair and 109 allow the pilot to be fairly lazy with their gunnery, and the P-51, as I'm finding out, doesn't.

Second, I'm a college student, I don't get 20 hours a day to fly, a couple hours a week if I'm lucky between school and work.

Third, my best aircraft is the 109.  I spent all year learning how it flies and practicing tater gunnery and then decided I wanted to fly something else.  I can go toe to toe with almost any aircraft in the set and come out on top with my 109 all things being equal.  I want to fly the P-51 and I don't want to do the gamey bit of flying until I die to learn how to use it.  That's how I learned the 109 and the corsair before then and I'm tired of that method.
I don't expect the best P-51 pilots flew over German bases until they got shot down in order to learn how not to fly their aircraft, the goal of my flight was to up, find other planes, shoot as many as possible down and get back to base.  With a big emphasis on getting back to base.

I came here looking for advice on how to counter one of the most common and difficult aircraft to fight against.  I recieved that, thank you.

[Gabriel]

You're such a stud , don't see how us mere mortals could help.

[Vudak]

I want to fly the P-51 and I don't want to do the gamey bit of flying until I die to learn how to use it.  That's how I learned the 109 and the corsair before then and I'm tired of that method.
I don't expect the best P-51 pilots flew over German bases until they got shot down in order to learn how not to fly their aircraft, the goal of my flight was to up, find other planes, shoot as many as possible down and get back to base.  With a big emphasis on getting back to base.

Well, it sounds like you're well one your way to being an average P-51 jock around here. 

[SgtPappy]

Being patient might work, but I'm not sure because I haven't tried it yet 

However, when I'm running around in a fast aircraft trying to fight a Spitfire, I aim on just getting the fight higher, but not necessarily gaining the altitude advantage immediately.

[dashed]

First, let me point out that I'm not a good stick.  I fly the 47N when I'm looking for speed fights, so that says it all....

Also, this isn't a criticism or anysuch of what others have said, just seems like a good place for a public service announcement.

When I'm in a 51 or 47, my order in merge is:
1: avoid HO against cannon;
2: at merge, LOOK BACK;
3: NOW decide on fight or flight.

Being in a near pure E fighter means if your opponent knows what he is doing, you need distance and quickly.  If your opponent is indecisive, or screwed, make a fast E turn that will bring you above him with options.  For example, if a Spit(anything) enters climbing turn, it's time to put nose up a bit, extend and decide.  I see a lot about proper merge and actions, but the bottom line is this ain't a science, you need to identify your situation and find a mistake for your opponent to make, and if you can't find a mistake for him to make it may be time to save your plane and find a better situation.

One of the things I see all the time are people giving detailed "instructions" to new people with no knowledge of their experience or abilities.  When somebody asks me what to learn in and how to learn, I usually tell them FM2 or P38.  The planes are to gain experience in control and SA, as you won't be up long if you lack either.  I also tell them to watch a lot of fights and only enter fights they feel they have a chance in.  Learning is hard, but being shot down so fast everytime you up that you don't gain experience is just a plain pain and breaks a lot of newbies. 

To win, you have to identify the threat and react, which can only come with experience, which means sticking to survival basics for a while.

I fly as I play poker:  Put HIM to many decisions, and he will make a mistake.

Have Fun, Fly Well
Dashe
The spare parts King(if i brought da hole plane back, the Chief would die)

[Plawranc]

Easy Dive past the spit and keep going wait for him to follow if he dosnt re merge if he does climb straight up if he follows you up he will stall if he dosnt jst go down and kill him

[The Fugitive]

First, let me point out that I'm not a good stick.  I fly the 47N when I'm looking for speed fights, so that says it all....

Also, this isn't a criticism or anysuch of what others have said, just seems like a good place for a public service announcement.

When I'm in a 51 or 47, my order in merge is:
1: avoid HO against cannon;
2: at merge, LOOK BACK;
3: NOW decide on fight or flight.

Being in a near pure E fighter means if your opponent knows what he is doing, you need distance and quickly.  If your opponent is indecisive, or screwed, make a fast E turn that will bring you above him with options.  For example, if a Spit(anything) enters climbing turn, it's time to put nose up a bit, extend and decide.  I see a lot about proper merge and actions, but the bottom line is this ain't a science, you need to identify your situation and find a mistake for your opponent to make, and if you can't find a mistake for him to make it may be time to save your plane and find a better situation.

One of the things I see all the time are people giving detailed "instructions" to new people with no knowledge of their experience or abilities.  When somebody asks me what to learn in and how to learn, I usually tell them FM2 or P38.  The planes are to gain experience in control and SA, as you won't be up long if you lack either.  I also tell them to watch a lot of fights and only enter fights they feel they have a chance in.  Learning is hard, but being shot down so fast everytime you up that you don't gain experience is just a plain pain and breaks a lot of newbies. 

To win, you have to identify the threat and react, which can only come with experience, which means sticking to survival basics for a while.

I fly as I play poker:  Put HIM to many decisions, and he will make a mistake.

Have Fun, Fly Well
Dashe
The spare parts King(if i brought da hole plane back, the Chief would die)

Dashe, I think you should take some lessons from the trainers. By flying the "E" machines yes you have to be a bit more careful, but I think your being wayyyyyy toooooo careful. If you attack quicker, he has less time to make all those decisions so will make a mistake sooner.

The OP made a mistake in his SA. Your SA is starting to late.

When I'm in a 51 or 47, my order in merge is:
1: avoid HO against cannon; You've already blown the merge. By pointing your nose at the enemy your giving up angles.  By the time I pass an enemy on the merge I like to be at least 45 degrees off his nose. This gives me a 25% headstart on my next turn to him.
2: at merge, LOOK BACK; Good idea, fly most of the flight looking at the enemy, not where you are going. The only time you should NEED to look out the front of your plane is to shoot the enemy.
3: NOW decide on fight or flight. When you merge you should already know whether you are going to fight or run. That is part of the SA. Knowing which cards the enemy has and which cards you have and deciding before you even turn toward him the first time if you got enough to make a fight of it, or just fold and run.

Being careful is all well and good. Not putting yourself into a position where you might be screwed (although its a lot of fun and a good learning experience trying to fight your way out  ) is a good fighting style, but don't push it to such an extreme that you never engage.

[Steve]

Easy Dive past the spit and keep going wait for him to follow if he does climb straight up

Bang, you're dead.  In the initial scenario the spit had more E and was closing. Rope FAIL

[Anaxogoras]

When I'm in a 51 or 47, my order in merge is:
1: avoid HO against cannon;
2: at merge, LOOK BACK;
3: NOW decide on fight or flight.

Are you saying you go for a head-on shot if you think you have the bandit slightly outgunned? 

[dashed]

Are you saying you go for a head-on shot if you think you have the bandit slightly outgunned? 

No, never if I can avoid it, but too many here are very adept at forcing HOs, so I change merge far earlier if he has cannon, figuring if he wants to play craps I'll get an angle if he doesn't reacrt quickly.  If he is just gunned, I will be closer, try to avoid, but a 47vsZero HO is better for me that letting him get around on me if I'm jumped with no real E.

Have Fun, Fly Well
Dashe

[Anaxogoras]

Ok, that's good!  I was a little worried there but didn't want to jump to the wrong conclusion.