Author Topic: I love the Pony... but...  (Read 3478 times)

Offline Speed55

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2009, 07:47:48 AM »

The goal of the BnZ attack is to force your opponent to bleed his energy so that he can't maneuver sufficiently to avoid your next BnZ pass.  You do this by keeping the pressure on, not letting the target regain his energy or altitude.  You'll see the good, aggressive P-51 drivers 'tap dance' on the head of the target before they go for the kill shot. 

BnZ properly done is hardly the timid tactic the majority seem to think it is.  It only become a timid tactic at the hands of a timid pilot.

ack-ack

What do you think about a HO shot in this situation?  If you can't get the BnZ guy to bleed down his E, or drop his altitude, and all he's going to do is keep pinning you down, what else is there.?
I've HO'd guys like that before. It's no fun to be the mouse, or food, with no chance of survival.  So if i can store just enough energy to climb into him while he's diving, i'll take the HO shot without any reservations.  It's not like it's a fair fight anyway.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2009, 08:49:57 AM »
It's not like it's a fair fight anyway.

Bollocks!

If he's forced to use E-tactics, instead of just using his positional advantage to saddle up, reduce throttle, and kill you easily by plugging away from close dead-six, that means one of two things: Either he doesn't dare slow down too much because your airplane has a decided maneuverability advantage, or he doesn't dare slow down because too many of your buddies are in the area. Either way, his use of E is what makes an otherwise unfair situation closer to being "fair".
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Online The Fugitive

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2009, 09:58:06 AM »
What do you think about a HO shot in this situation?  If you can't get the BnZ guy to bleed down his E, or drop his altitude, and all he's going to do is keep pinning you down, what else is there.?
I've HO'd guys like that before. It's no fun to be the mouse, or food, with no chance of survival.  So if i can store just enough energy to climb into him while he's diving, i'll take the HO shot without any reservations.  It's not like it's a fair fight anyway.

You have other options than taking a cheap shot.

If you guys are at altitude, dive away to equalize "E" states as much as you can. Check out Murdrs move for getting bounced by a high "E" and alt bogie. If your on the deck he has to come at you in a shallow angle...so he don't bounce it off the ground... use the same maneuver from Murdr film, but keep your barrel roll tight and quick and you will have a shot at him.

Offline infowars

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2009, 11:33:49 AM »
Yeah,  I've tried to follow Steve around before.   :noid  I couldn't keep up...  hahaha

I'll keep working on it. 

I love good one on ones in my 51.  You're in the MA and the DA for that matter they're hard to come by.
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Offline Steve

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2009, 01:12:54 PM »
So if i can store just enough energy to climb into him while he's diving, i'll take the HO shot without any reservations.  It's not like it's a fair fight anyway.

What's unfair about it? You both started in the tower with the same tools at your disposal.  As far as manuevering to get a HO shot while he's diving, well no offense but you are cherry to any skilled pilot. A simple yoyo back up and then re-time the dive so I have a gun solution as your nose falls and you are toast. Additionally, if you are fighting to merely go for a HO shot, a coin flip at best, you are never going to have much success in the MA.

Lastly, a plane who is Zooming you and has an E advantage really shouldn't offer you any HO shots.
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Offline Morpheus

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2009, 02:42:48 PM »
best advice to anyone trying to learn how to fly the pony is to furball in it. Learn everything about it, low, slow, stall in it, die in it, which you will. Alot. Then everything else will fall into place. Anyone thinking the pony is a weak ride to furball in is in for a big surprise.
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Offline uptown

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2009, 05:25:20 PM »
best advice to anyone trying to learn how to fly the pony is to furball in it. Learn everything about it, low, slow, stall in it, die in it, which you will. Alot. Then everything else will fall into place. Anyone thinking the pony is a weak ride to furball in is in for a big surprise.
Friggen A. I upped one w/25% into a CV raid, and in about 10 minutes had 3 sorties for 14 kills. Never got above 3k the whole time. You get the right shape on a guy and you can saw him up. Fantatstic plane when it wants to be. :aok
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2009, 09:03:02 PM »
best advice to anyone trying to learn how to fly the pony is to furball in it. Learn everything about it, low, slow, stall in it, die in it, which you will. Alot. Then everything else will fall into place. Anyone thinking the pony is a weak ride to furball in is in for a big surprise.

Isn't that the truth.  The guys who actually learn to fly the thing can really work it down low and slow too.

I prefer the 51B to the D.  It's great fun on the deck and it can turn and so can the D.  The guys who just hang above the fight and come in at light speed and then 'extend' a sector before coming back, just give the 51 a bad name.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2009, 11:50:24 PM »
What do you think about a HO shot in this situation?  If you can't get the BnZ guy to bleed down his E, or drop his altitude, and all he's going to do is keep pinning you down, what else is there.?
I've HO'd guys like that before. It's no fun to be the mouse, or food, with no chance of survival.  So if i can store just enough energy to climb into him while he's diving, i'll take the HO shot without any reservations.  It's not like it's a fair fight anyway.

I think the last four or five guys that tried this against my rope died as they were trying to build their E again. Turning into the enemy is good but going for the HO only makes sense against a 262 (because they deserve it) and only if you have the energy for the guns to remain stable and otherwise you are better off turning into your attacker only until you have the chance to get out of his line of fire and tag him at the bottom of his attack.

Infowars I could not find you in the roster but if you PM me I will go to the TA with you and a couple of squaddies if you like. In the TA no one explodes but you dont get the DA behavior either.
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Offline MjTalon

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2009, 09:48:59 AM »
best advice to anyone trying to learn how to fly the pony is to furball in it. Learn everything about it, low, slow, stall in it, die in it, which you will. Alot. Then everything else will fall into place. Anyone thinking the pony is a weak ride to furball in is in for a big surprise.

PREACH! That's how i learned my 190. Now i piss off spitfier pilots when i out maneuver them.  ;)

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2009, 12:03:48 PM »
Just tell your pony you have to work late. :rofl

 :rofl :rofl :rofl

I'm so glad I visited this thread.
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Offline RoGenT

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2009, 04:19:44 PM »
B/Z is fun, and if stituation is allowed, I'll turnfight, stall fight, etc, etc. I usually lose but fun to do regardless.


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Offline Speed55

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2009, 04:43:27 PM »
I don't like to take the HO, don't get me wrong, but i won't lie and say i've never taken a HO shot either.

What i meant basically was, if i'm pinned down by a BnZ guy that knows what he's doing, he'll never let me get a good shot on him. If i can time the attacks right, he'll never get guns on me either though, and the situation will never end.  

I've augured purposely, or just put it on autolevel and let the guy get the kill because after the 5th pass i was getting bored.  

I think one of the last times i flew, it was the pony and i got into a good 2v1 fight verse a spit16 and another pony on the deck.



 
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Offline mtnman

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2009, 05:29:35 PM »
What do you think about a HO shot in this situation?  If you can't get the BnZ guy to bleed down his E, or drop his altitude, and all he's going to do is keep pinning you down, what else is there.?
I've HO'd guys like that before. It's no fun to be the mouse, or food, with no chance of survival.  So if i can store just enough energy to climb into him while he's diving, i'll take the HO shot without any reservations.  It's not like it's a fair fight anyway.

I see this a lot from guys that pull vertical to HO as I dive in.  If this type of HO is done against someone who's paying attention, not fixated, and has a clue, then it's simply suicide.  If I'm in a BnZ mode for a particular fight, nothing yells "I give up, just shoot me..." more than seeing the low guy pull up into an HO.  All I need to do to defeat that HO is roll so my wings are 90 degrees off of his (makes his shott much harder), and pull up into a yo-yo or loop.  I'll be diving out of my yo-yo or loop about 1000yds above him as he stalls/wallows at the top of his HO zoom.  I'll have an easy shot on a nearly stationary, helpless, target.

An HO isn't an effective move in this situation, but if you've read the previous posts you should see what is...  The experienced guys who've described effective BnZ attacks have mentioned that it's important to set up directly above your target, adjust your turns via vertical rolling, pressure your lower opponent so he can't recover E and SA between your attacks, and avoid extending out too far.  If you do this as an attacker, you opponent gets helpless real quick.

However, if you're the low guy all you need to do to defeat this BnZ attack is stop you attacker from effectively following that doctrine.  Remove his ability to do one of those things, and his attack weakens.  Remove his ability to do two of those things and his attack falls apart.  All you really need to do is get him to make a mistake, get careless, and you can come out on top or at least defeat his attack.  

The easiest way to do this is to pay close attention to your attacker, and pull just hard enough to dodge his attacks, and when he zooms back up make sure you go in a direction that keeps you out from under him.  In other words, you need to extend out to the side each opportunity you get, and increase horizontal seperation.  Don't dive away, but lower your nose a bit if you need to to keep your speed up, try not to pull too hard in your dodges, and watch for him to lose sight of you by blocking his vision of you with one of his wings as he zooms back up.  This allows you to subtly adjust heading a bit to keep him guessing.  When he does dive back in, turn a bit, so he comes from your side instaed of on your direct six.  This allows you to turn on your own terms, bleeding less E.

Doing that a few times will hopefully cause him to burn enough of his excess E that he doesn't have such a great advantage over you.  It also puts you in a state of causing him to react to your dodges, instead of you reacting to his attacks.  You may be disadvantaged, but that doesn't mean you can't dictate at least some of the terms of the fight.

Do this right, and you'll probably end up with him behind you, but nearly co-E.  Get him to make one more mistake and you'll bag him...  Doing this successfully against a good stick is tough, for sure.  But not impossible...  And remember, most guys don't effectively BnZ anyway, so are good practice.  

On the other hand, if you're BnZing, don't let your opponent get away with any of that stuff I just mentioned!

MtnMan

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Offline mtnman

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Re: I love the Pony... but...
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2009, 05:37:49 PM »
I've augured purposely, or just put it on autolevel and let the guy get the kill because after the 5th pass i was getting bored.  


Bored?  How could you be bored?

You're basically set up with an opportunity to totally "own" your opponent!  What better way than to survive his attacks from a severely disadvantaged state, turn the tables on him, and send him back to the tower???

IMO, those are often some of the best fights in the game!
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson