Author Topic: Dropping Flaps??  (Read 22388 times)

Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #180 on: September 16, 2009, 02:52:51 AM »
what do you mean by normalize?

if that means a method of accurately determining the flap deployment speed capabilities of all the aircraft replacing the method we have now, which i believe is flawed, then yes that is what i want on this issue. 

in general what i want is an accurate yet playable game that is enough of a sim and enough of a game so that we can get a better feeling of where these planes all excelled, and all were weak, so we can get a better feel for what the battles were really like, without the necessity of the years of training usually required to reach a sufficient level of skill to confidently operate these aircraft in combat. 

So what you really want, regardless of all this discussion, is to normalize the flap deployment speeds among all the aircraft in Aces High? 
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #181 on: September 16, 2009, 04:23:00 AM »
what do you mean by normalize?

if that means a method of accurately determining the flap deployment speed capabilities of all the aircraft replacing the method we have now, which i believe is flawed, then yes that is what i want on this issue. 

in general what i want is an accurate yet playable game that is enough of a sim and enough of a game so that we can get a better feeling of where these planes all excelled, and all were weak, so we can get a better feel for what the battles were really like, without the necessity of the years of training usually required to reach a sufficient level of skill to confidently operate these aircraft in combat. 


This argument has already been hashed out in the numerous threads about the auto-retracting flap feature.  The answer is the same now as it was then, it pretty much boils down to a game play design decision.  While I might want to have the option of running the risk of flaps jamming if I exceed limits, like in another flight sim, I can understand the reasoning and the decision behind it.  At what point is there a structural failure?  It's all a haphazard guess, I can't say for certain that the flaps on the P-38 will jam at 255mph or 300mph.  The game would have to rely on a randomizer (like in that other flight sim), which is something HiTech has already mentioned is dislike of.  In addition, there is the game design concessions that have to be made to attract and retain new players.

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Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #182 on: September 16, 2009, 10:19:38 AM »
Thor: This will sound like a silly question at first but give it some thought before you reply.

Quote
in general what i want is an ACCURATE  yet playable game that is enough of a sim and enough of a game so that we can get a better feeling of where these planes all excelled, and all were weak, so we can get a better feel for what the battles were really like, without the necessity of the years of training usually required to reach a sufficient level of skill to confidently operate these aircraft in combat.

Define ACCURATE in terms of flight modeling specificity relating to flaps.

HiTech

Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #183 on: September 16, 2009, 11:06:36 AM »
i will think about it hitech, i see the problem with "accurate" where specific data is missing. ...

can i ask you hitech, if you are content with the way things are even after all the discussions and information that we have had in this thread and others.  

does it bother you that you are vulnerable to so many inconsistencies because you take such a stringent stance on subjective information.  do you some times feel let down in your efforts to be objective because you have settled on this method and criteria?

after all no matter what information i find or can prove, none of that however compelling is going to change a flight manual that has already been printed 60+ years ago.  it will take no small amount of research to address even one aircraft, and that information will still conflict with the criteria you have gone with for years.  

i guess i am asking you if you are willing to make exceptions to your methodology in such cases?  

would it make a difference if say Burt Rutan told you that the force load capabilities of a flap structure does not normally significantly change as the deflection angles change, instead of me?   
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 11:24:15 AM by thorsim »
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #184 on: September 16, 2009, 11:28:32 AM »
i understand hitechs decision there, but that is not really what we are discussing ack ack.
what happens when you exceed the speed limits is a different issue than what the speed limits are.
once again i am not nit picking here, we are talking about a +200mph, +100% disparity.

This argument has already been hashed out in the numerous threads about the auto-retracting flap feature.  The answer is the same now as it was then, it pretty much boils down to a game play design decision.  While I might want to have the option of running the risk of flaps jamming if I exceed limits, like in another flight sim, I can understand the reasoning and the decision behind it.  At what point is there a structural failure?  It's all a haphazard guess, I can't say for certain that the flaps on the P-38 will jam at 255mph or 300mph.  The game would have to rely on a randomizer (like in that other flight sim), which is something HiTech has already mentioned is dislike of.  In addition, there is the game design concessions that have to be made to attract and retain new players.

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« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 11:32:29 AM by thorsim »
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Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #185 on: September 16, 2009, 11:32:49 AM »
No thor, we will not make an exception to basic methodology. But we may at one point change the methodology. What has to be show is that a different methodology would produce a better overall product, not just look at one data point and say it would be better in this case.

And that is one of the things I have been trying to help you to understand our thought process. We are always reevaluating how we do things. It is one of the reasons I am involved in this discussion. Items like your data post, are only another item for consideration, it really is not a conclusive , must be change what we do type piece of data.

Quote
does it bother you that you are vulnerable to so many inconsistencies because you take such a stringent stance on subjective information.  do you some times feel let down in your efforts to be objective because you have settled on this method and criteria?

Again you make a statement with out any supporting evidence. You assume we are vulnerable, we can very easily say we are very consistent in our methods. You are wanting us to be completely inconsistent in our modeling by asking us to make an exception in the way we model flaps with the 109.

Quote
i will think about it hitech, i see the problem with "accurate" where specific data is missing. ...
You may be missing my question, I am not asking how to be accurate with missing data, I am asking to define what accuracy is. As I said, you may not quite see the difference because right now you are thinking the term accurate is an obvious word.

It is not so obvious when you think of the entire system, and that we are not real world but on a 2D screen with a key board and a Joystick for control, and the joy stick works nothing like a real joystick in a plane works.

Quote
after all no matter what information i find or can prove, none of that however compelling is going to change a flight manual that has already been printed 60+ years ago.  it will take no small amount of research to address even one aircraft, and that information will still conflict with the criteria you have gone with for years.

You have only scratched the surface with this statement. The more you do research, the more you will find conflicting data from many different sources. As I said, your post is only 1 sheet, I.E. 1 data point with out any knowledge surrounding why the sheet was produced.

Even your sheet can be misleading with out basic knowledge of flight, I.E. it may be safe to drop flaps at those speeds with the plane at 1 G loads, what happens at greater loads? Maybe this is why your data sheet conflicts with flight manuals?

HiTech




Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #186 on: September 16, 2009, 11:48:34 AM »
well i did not expect change tomorrow, i will however take heart in having the word "change" in your post.

per your earlier question ...

"accurate" would mean that if i were able to get into one of these planes today i could expect the things that plane could do in the real world to be mirrored in the game up to the point where htc decides that there is a reality/game play adjustment to be made.

you may have missed this from my last post, i added this thought a little later.  i am not used to such rapidly moving threads i am sorry ...

"would it make a difference if say Burt Rutan told you that the force load capabilities of a flap structure does not normally significantly change as the deflection angles change, instead of me?"

would an expert engineering opinion be a welcome addition to the information being considered?
i would ask the same for a current pilots observation as there are or will be flying examples of the two aircraft brought up so far.   

thanks again for your attention in this matter hitech.



 

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Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #187 on: September 16, 2009, 11:51:32 AM »

"would it make a difference if say Burt Rutan told you that the force load capabilities of a flap structure does not normally significantly change as the deflection angles change, instead of me?"

I do not understand this statement.

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #188 on: September 16, 2009, 11:58:53 AM »
"would it make a difference if say Burt Rutan told you that the force load capabilities of a flap structure does not normally significantly change as the deflection angles change, instead of me?"

I do not understand this statement.
Wants to know if you would like some expert information on flap structural load capabilities at varying deflection angles from Burt Rutan himself.
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #189 on: September 16, 2009, 12:06:43 PM »
well an expert anyway ...

imo this is a force load question and nothing more.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #190 on: September 16, 2009, 12:40:57 PM »
well an expert anyway ...

imo this is a force load question and nothing more.
And not sure if you are taking this into consideration or not but...force load is proportionate to air density + structure dimension + speed.

Since I'm not an aeronautical engineer see if I got this right.

Lift is equal to 1/2 the air density x true airspeed squared x area of the wing x lift coefficient ? ? ?

So if Thor is asserting that a slotted flap which measures 3 feet in length by 18 inches at 250mph TAS will produce the same results as a plain flap that measures 5 feet long by 22 inches wide...(which I seriously doubt)...that still leaves the question of wing mass, aircraft weight, air density, and structural limitations.

or am I waaaaay out in left field watching grass grow?
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Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #191 on: September 16, 2009, 12:49:17 PM »
well an expert anyway ...

imo this is a force load question and nothing more.

Thor By  load I was referring to the force on the flap when flying level vs force on flap when doing a 2 or 3 g turn.


Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #192 on: September 16, 2009, 01:12:09 PM »
Thor By  load I was referring to the force on the flap when flying level vs force on flap when doing a 2 or 3 g turn.



hitech, i was not considering your g load statement, i fail to see how the g loads would effect one plane differently than another.

the force i am referring to is the (x)lbs of force, the structure can withstand and how that should not change significantly as the structure goes through its range of movement.  

the wind speeds and deflection angles will obviously change to result in that force, but that is what we are discussing right?  

the fact that the speeds must change as the deflections change in order to result on the same force being applied to the same structure.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 01:18:49 PM by thorsim »
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #193 on: September 16, 2009, 01:17:12 PM »
no gyrene, i am not looking for a relationship between different structures i am looking for a way to predict the speeds/deflection for the same structure by using the force loading at a known speed/deflection on that structure. 
i am not implying that one set of values be used for different systems, rather i am stating that the same system can manage the same force no matter what speed/deflection results in that force.

And not sure if you are taking this into consideration or not but...force load is proportionate to air density + structure dimension + speed.

Since I'm not an aeronautical engineer see if I got this right.

Lift is equal to 1/2 the air density x true airspeed squared x area of the wing x lift coefficient ? ? ?

So if Thor is asserting that a slotted flap which measures 3 feet in length by 18 inches at 250mph TAS will produce the same results as a plain flap that measures 5 feet long by 22 inches wide...(which I seriously doubt)...that still leaves the question of wing mass, aircraft weight, air density, and structural limitations.

or am I waaaaay out in left field watching grass grow?
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Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #194 on: September 16, 2009, 01:31:25 PM »
Thor force on the structure will change with AOA, I just have never looked into exactly how much.

HiTech