Author Topic: Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?  (Read 4427 times)

Offline Vermillion

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« on: February 20, 2001, 08:29:00 AM »
Edit: I wrote this once already today (40mins typing), but the fargin BBS ate it, saying it had too many images. It didn't have a SINGLE image in it.

Ok... Its a psuedo Monday, I have a headache, and I'm in a generally pissy mood. So watch out, a rant of major proportions is coming. You have been warned.

Call me "CommieWobble", a "Red Star Whiner", a "Nancy Boy", or just a general "Whiner", I don't care, but what in the world is up with the serious anti-VVS bias to Aces High?

Its starting to become glaringly obvious.

For the longest time the only Soviet/Russian aircraft to grace the skies of Aces High was the La5FN.  The 1943 La5 versus the 1944-45 planeset of the other combatants was the only choice for most of the time AH has existed.

Now don't get me wrong, the La5FN (a midwar varient) is a capable opponent when it is matched up against aircraft from its own time period.  But I think we can all agree that its generally outclassed by the late war AH planeset.

But can someone tell me why it is modeled with the worst possible flight test performance data available (an issue that has been debated to death on this BBS)? Oh and why it mysteriously lacks its ground attack rockets, in addition to its rightful dearth of external ordinance and fuel? Strange... but not really a pattern.... yet.

So for much of the life of Aces High, fans of Russian aircraft suffered with a distinct disparity in aircraft, but took it well.

And then one day, after much campaigning and bribery to HTC, the much sought after Yak-9U was announced to be released in 1.03 !!

The Yak-9U, widely touted to be the equal to the P-51D Mustang, in all regards. Hurray!! Oh wait... weren't you told that the Yak-9U would also be modeled with the worst possible performance data?? That your 437mph Yak-9U, the fastest plane at its altitude, would become a 417mph Yak-9U, thereby losing 20mph at both altitude and sea level? Sure its still a great performing aircraft, but how would YOU feel if your favorite plane lost 20mph all around?? Can you imagine what would happen if the Dora came out 20mph too slow? The BBS would be flooded with posts of "I QUIT!", and threats of everything from boycotts to actually storming the HTC offices in Texas with a well organized mob.

And did I forget to mention the lack of subclass armament options for the Yak-9U, the Yak-9UT ? We have the Fw190A8/R2, the Me109G6/R6, the Me109G10/R6, and many others. So why is the Yak-9UT any different? Where is its x3 20mm option, the 23mm option, the 37mm option, or even the vaunted 45mm option?? Well its not any different, and I won't even mention the words F4U-1C... ooops  

Why are the VVS aircraft stuck to their weakest most common armament options when  most every other nationality has multiple options, including rare "cannon birds"?? Wow those x2 20mm ShVaks in the La5Fn are simply devastating, and the Yak-9U with its single 20mm cannon with 150 rounds is a real terror.

But Pyro stated that he would add the Yak-9UT at a later date so that he could better control it with the Perk System, and many complaints were quieted. (Admittedly, primarily mine)

So now the promise of 1.06 is on the horizon, and the much anticipated Yak-9UT that was hinted at is here !!

Oh wait.... your not getting the Yak-9UT, your getting a Yak-9T.

Another midwar varient, that has a max speed of around 360mph, and otherwise poor performance compared to the planeset in AH. True its got a BFG cannon, a potent 37mm NS-37 cannon, but its otherwise fodder for the rest of the arena. It will be fun to fly once in a while, but about as surviveable as a Zero.

Can someone tell me why we didn't get the much anticipated Yak-9UT instead??

I know I know....

You'be been thinking all thru this post "SHUT UP whiner, your getting the La7 !!!".

But are we?

I keep getting this itchy feeling in the back of my mind that the La7 is gonna be added as a perk plane, even tho its performance doesn't warrant it.  

So here we go again... the VVS is stuck flying the worst possible configuration and performance that can be managed. And I won't even go into the lack of a Russian attack plane or bomber. And wasn't the Soviet Union the 2nd or 3rd largest producer of aircraft in the Second World War?

About the only country's that may have it as bad or worse in the "holding the crappy end of the stick" deal than the Soviets in AH are the Italians and the Japanese. But hey.. how can you complain when you have the N1K2 ?

Yup you might have guessed it, but I will spell it out. I'm simply......

     



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Vermillion
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Offline fscott

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2001, 08:40:00 AM »
Your wrong Verm. The 9u travels at its proper prescribed sea level speed. I can't argue with its altitude speed although it does appear to be off.

Also, you have the La7 coming, and the awesome firepower of the 9t.

Wanna talk conspiracy? You REALLY wanna talk about conspiracy? How bout only TWO Japanese planes, neither of them up to the standards of late war products as you so eloquently whine. No Ki84, no Ki44, no Ki100, just an outclassed Zeke, and the Niki, which maxes out at 369 mph.

Come on Verm, leave some for the Rising Sun.

fscott

funked

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2001, 08:41:00 AM »
"Yak-9U production" stats in the Gordhon & Khazanov book match AH Yak-9U performance.  Where is the problem?

Many other aircraft have speeds well below that of prototype performance or even the highest numbers for the production model.

 
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I keep getting this itchy feeling in the back of my mind that the La7 is gonna be added as a perk plane, even tho its performance doesn't warrant it.

It has about the same performance as the F8F Bearcat.  If that's not perkable, what is?

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-20-2001).]

nonoht

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2001, 08:44:00 AM »
totaly agree with you....

need some SB-2
IL-2
Il-4

:{

Offline Toad

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2001, 08:59:00 AM »
I believe that HTC having only 6 employees is further evidence of the conspiracy!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline RAM

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2001, 09:03:00 AM »
Verm, how to say this...

is a great thing I'm not in the game for now, because if I was I would be quite raged too. Ta152H1 before Fw190D9...and 3 german planes this version, so if the FW190D9 doesnt see the light now, it wont be here for a long time...


You have problems with the data charts ,but you have the planes itself. God knows how happy would I be even with a nonMW50 190D9, but it isnt here either.

I feel your pain  . BUt I dont think you are in such a bad situation than us LW, at least regarding the fighters.

Offline straffo

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2001, 09:07:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by fscott:
Your wrong Verm. The 9u travels at its proper prescribed sea level speed. I can't argue with its altitude speed although it does appear to be off.

BS

 
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Also, you have the La7 coming, and the awesome firepower of the 9t.

UBER BS

 
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Wanna talk conspiracy? You REALLY wanna talk about conspiracy? How bout only TWO Japanese planes, neither of them up to the standards of late war products as you so eloquently whine. No Ki84, no Ki44, no Ki100, just an outclassed Zeke, and the Niki, which maxes out at 369 mph.

no BS anymore here  

 
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Come on Verm, leave some for the Rising Sun.

Sorry ... I still prefer the rising cross...

Offline Vermillion

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2001, 09:24:00 AM »
Fscott, both the SL and Altitude data are majorly off, or perfectly on, depending on which data set you look at. Semantically called the "production vs prototype" issue, which we debated in depth prior to your arrival in AH. Basically Pyro used the worst data set possible for the VVS planes in AH.

Funked, you believe that the aircraft used to obtain flight test data for planes like the P51, F4U, and Spit IX, were average production aircraft straight off the line, without any tweaking at all by experienced mechanics, technicians and engineers? Come on bud, you and me both know better than that. And that is where the Soviet "production" data came from, for quality control. Sorry but if you look at method, style, and reason for obtaining the data, the Soviet "prototype" data most closely matches the Allied Flight Test program. Don't forget that the words "production" and "prototype" are a english translation of the original Russian, not necessarily an exact translation.

And the awesome firepower of the Yak-9T ? Oh and is that like the "awesome" firepower of the Me109G6 30mm varient, which we see so much? Isn't it rivaling the -1C for dominance of the arena? Oh FYI the Yak-9T will peform about like a 109G2. This will only be good for those "gee whizz" rides. Not a serious contender in the least.

But I totally agree with you on the Japanese issue Fscott, and said so in my original post.

RAM, you're getting your Ta152 and 190F8   rejoice and be happy! But its time for some parity for the rest of the countries in AH.



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Vermillion
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Offline fscott

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2001, 09:29:00 AM »
Verm, Yak9u prototype is listed as 372 mph at sea level. The production version is listed at 357 mph at sea level. The AH Yak9u achieves 357 mph at sea level. Where is the problem? And why on earth would you go with prototype numbers?

fscott

Offline Ripsnort

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2001, 09:34:00 AM »
So Ram, is that why you had the TA152 photo signature for so long, so that once we got the TA152, you could say "is a great thing I'm not in the game for now, because if I was I would be quite raged too. Ta152H1 before           Fw190D9..." ???

Un-be-lieveable.

   


[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-20-2001).]

Offline flakbait

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2001, 09:41:00 AM »
Verm, I know what you mean. I'm not exactly a VVS nut, but I do love my Yak. When I saw the Yak-9 shot I thought "UT variant! Yippie!!". Nope, sorry haas you get the stock 9T without the fuselage reinforcement and a shorter range. DAMN!

As for an anti-US conspiracy, it's called Numbers. Something lacking for a lot of interesting planes. I wrote a post on this not too long ago....

 
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From my post "US aircraft: too many or too few?"

Just through reading various sites about some specific aircraft I can tell you they're here in numbers for a reason. That reason is data. US aircraft had more testing done on them, and some are still flying today. Which means if you don't have the max roll rate of the P-47 at 311mph and 19,551 feet you can easily find out. Test one that's still flying. You can't do this to any other plane really, since the numbers are very rare or just plain don't exist. You can do some rare aircraft by spending a mongo amount of cash or time to get that data.

You can plug what you know into Pyro's little FM Builder, but that doesn't help any. Why? Hardly any info about the Ki-45 (an example, nothing more). So you stick planes in the game that you can do fairly quickly. Surprise! US aircraft have more info about them available than any other country. So we end up with a load of US planes in AH. There's the obvious foriegn AC; Bf-109s, Fw-190s, Ki-84s, Yaks, Bf-110s, Ki-43s, Spitfires, Hurricanes, Zekes, and Il-2s. They have info available about them, but what of the other aircraft you rarely see?


Now this could be a possibility for seeing many more US aircraft in the game. But remember when 1.06 is finally, put through it's paces, bugs fixed, problems solved we'll have a load of new aircraft that ARE NOT built in the US. Ar234, Fw-190 F8, Yak-9T, La-7, Ta-152 H1. Five brand new aircraft that don't have one of those "Made in USA" stamps on 'em.

As for performance specs, I think you're also correct. Pyro uses "production" figures, not the test figures we have found/bought/stolen/raided from various places. I would like to see a Yak-9D here one of these days, with 600 rounds for each MG and 400 for that cannon (probably wrong by a long shot). Same goes for the Yak-9T; since this plane base is '44-'45 based not making it a UT variant just doesn't have much logic behind it.

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Offline RAM

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2001, 09:58:00 AM »
Rip, the sig I most have used was this, and by far:

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Ram, out
Erg/JG26 homepage

I WANT THIS PLANE!!!!!!!
   
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The fact that I love the Ta152H as a plane doesnt deny the fact that is a plane that in Aces HIgh wont be the match for the P51D that the dora should be.

And I have Always said that I love the Fw190D9 far more than any other 190 variant.  

[edit] that signature that you show was used by me during less than one month.[/edit]



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-20-2001).]

Offline fd ski

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2001, 10:01:00 AM »
let's see... we have 1942 spitfire... 1942 tiffy... 1944 Tempest will be a PERK .... spitfire 14 is nowhere in sight ( and it will most likely be a perk )

RAF is stuck with 1942 spitfire 9 F ( worst of all spit 9s ) ...
Please tell me how bad you lads feel  


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Offline -lynx-

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Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2001, 10:15:00 AM »
It's not AH Verm - it's everywhere. It's a big-boy-is-down-why-not-kick-him-in-the-balls syndrome.  

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2001, 10:26:00 AM »
3 new LW aircraft this version and *some* LW-commited fliers still whine...un-be-lieve-able.

Edited after reading Staga's post, he's right.

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-20-2001).]