Author Topic: Mysterious move  (Read 2535 times)

Offline Mace2004

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2009, 03:17:49 PM »
Get film and then study it.  Physics is physics.  It is relatively easy for a higher e fighter to immel at the merge and be on his opponenet's six if his oppoenent straight lines it.  More precisely, the high e fighter is doing a half cuban 8.  Immel over the top until the nose is below the horizon, role upright and accelerate in an unloaded dive toward the opponent. 

When you see the film you'll see one,or a combination of differences that will make it clear how it was done.  First, you may find that he actually had an altitude advantage which he converted to speed by diving down to your altitude, maybe even before you saw him.  Second, he probably was set up for a lead turn on the merge giving him even less degrees-to-go to get his nose back on.  These claims of a "magical" reversal, over-modeled airplanes, even "hacking" have been around for years and I've never once seen a film that shows anything but that which can be explained by one or both of the above.  Pilots need to understand that they will probably not remember everything exactly as it actually occured, that's why you should always film and review the film if something happens that you don't understand. If people would only do that I think Ch 200 would be a lot quieter.

One of my favorite instances of this was when I did this in a Hurricane against a Tempest.  Ch 200 was a tirade of indignation and accusations from the Tempest pilot.  He was being chased directly toward me, I dove down accelerating to about 400mph, did a lead turn and dove right in on his six.  He claimed that he was going 450 (film showed him at about 300).  He claimed I climbed up to him (he only saw me after I had dove down below him and started pulling up for a vertical lead turn).  I was almost pure vertical at the merge which means I only had about 100-120 degrees to turn.  He claimed I "warped myself" onto his six (film showed nothing but a half cuban 8).   I used to have this film but lost in when I had to do a complete reinstallation of windows on my PC.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2009, 05:03:36 PM »
Ive had this happen, and boy whatever the trick or skill is I'd sure like to learn it. Usually its right after a merge when Im in a superior turning aircraft. I try and track him while Im turning, but cant cause he's somehow on my "6". With our energy states and aircraft types it just seemed impossable and I never saw any plane dancing due to lag.

But, maybe he was just that good. Or, I just suck. Or, both. :uhoh
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2009, 05:37:55 PM »
Ive had this happen, and boy whatever the trick or skill is I'd sure like to learn it. Usually its right after a merge when Im in a superior turning aircraft. I try and track him while Im turning, but cant cause he's somehow on my "6". With our energy states and aircraft types it just seemed impossable and I never saw any plane dancing due to lag.

But, maybe he was just that good. Or, I just suck. Or, both. :uhoh

There is no 'trick', it's a rather basic merge move on the part of the bandit.  The bandit is setting up for the merge before you guys actually merge, this allows the bandit to use a lead turn to latch on your six and stay there immediately after you both merge.  Awhile back I was accused of cheating by a player that I kept on shooting down using this type of merge.  Posted the films in these forums with a detailed explanation on what I did.  Not sure if the thread still exists after the forum migration.


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Offline Traveler

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2009, 01:12:02 PM »
I am by no means even a mediocre player, but I can't figure out how to do, or counter, this mystery move.

Right after the merge I will look back and see the guy who just flew past me in the opposite direction literally 1 second ago is now on my 6.

This seems to happen in the blink of an eye.

Occasionaly I look back in time to see what I will call a "cobra" manuver, yet the plane doesn't seem to lose any energy!

Everytime I see this happen I know I am dead.

Can anyone shed some light on this mystery (to me) move?? :noid



without film, who knows, but something that has not been mentioned is perhaps lose of SA and didn't see the second con?
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Offline whiteman

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2009, 02:52:00 PM »
without film, who knows, but something that has not been mentioned is perhaps lose of SA and didn't see the second con?

no thats not it and it's what AcK Ack said, It's just the angles make it look like he's making a hard move when he's been in a slow gradual turn a long way out.

Offline Agent360

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2009, 04:59:03 PM »
I find it interesting no one has film of a "mysterious move"........ :O

I have been following this thread with anticapation.

Theres not one of you who has film of me pulling this move on you guys....LOLOLOLOL.

I KNOW the 38 drivers have some of them doing it on me.

This kind of topic comes up alot. I am surprised no one has "stock footage" of the "mysterious move"

 :D

Offline StokesAk

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2009, 05:34:37 PM »
Know what i would do. DA a good stick and see if he uses it, if he does ask him bout it.
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2009, 07:19:03 PM »
I actualy posted an example film on page 1 of 11k doing the move to me. No one cares, not my problem. :)
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Offline morfiend

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2009, 08:56:16 PM »
I actualy posted an example film on page 1 of 11k doing the move to me. No one cares, not my problem. :)



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Offline StokesAk

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2009, 09:06:37 PM »
Oh yea, all he did was cut his throttle, you had more E than him making the easy.
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Offline Agent360

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2009, 09:41:55 PM »
Oh yea, all he did was cut his throttle, you had more E than him making the easy.

I looked at bats film and this example shows how it is done in a looser fashion but it does not show the move in its classical tight immediate reversal.

It is not a simple matter of just "cutting the throttle". There is a lot more to it.

I will get some film up for you guys in the next few days showing how this is done.




Offline BillyD

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2009, 10:22:20 PM »
<--------- waits for Agents films patiently outside........
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Offline StokesAk

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2009, 10:27:05 PM »
Yea me too, i need to use more throttle control.
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Offline Kazaa

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2009, 11:10:10 AM »
It’s impossible to do a “cobra” type maneuver without dumping a ton of E.



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Offline Agent360

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Re: Mysterious move
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2009, 07:56:56 PM »
This move is NOT a cobra type move. A cobra CAN NOT be done in a prop plane.

It is in fact a type of rolling scissor reversal that gets a very close gun solution. It involves a type stalling verticle snap turn that swings the nose and tail around in an arc. What really happens is the other guy simply flys to your guns. You dont really to anything other than swing the nose around while he fly into the gun solution.

The cobra thing comes from how it looks to you when you get shot. It appears to be a total end over end move. But it is not. Viewed from a out of plane perspective you will see that it is nothing more than a very tight verticle scissor.

There are two basic things that must happen. 1st the bandit MUST ATTEMPT to get guns. 2nd YOU MUST achieve some amount of verticle seperation on the pull up.

I didn't get it on film last night. But tonight I will.