Author Topic: Dumbest...Program...Ever...  (Read 1539 times)

Offline Saxman

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Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« on: April 25, 2009, 10:04:39 PM »
"Deadliest Warrior" on Spike.

I just watched their episode on "Samurai vs. Viking" and they screwed SO MUCH stuff up it wasn't funny. They had the Viking just STAND there with his shield on his back while the Samurai was shooting arrows at him. WTF?
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline StokesAk

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2009, 10:09:17 PM »
 :rofl, They were testing if the viking has natural armour.
Strokes

Offline caldera

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2009, 10:22:45 PM »
I would say that title goes to that show "Chuck" you're always talking about.  ;)





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 For the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods."

Offline BnZs

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2009, 10:34:14 PM »
"Deadliest Warrior" on Spike.

I just watched their episode on "Samurai vs. Viking" and they screwed SO MUCH stuff up it wasn't funny. They had the Viking just STAND there with his shield on his back while the Samurai was shooting arrows at him. WTF?

I saw that Saxman. The pissing match aspect to the show is childish and asinine. The forensic tests on the weapons are kind of interesting sometimes. It amused me when they tested the katana on the mail-shirt...not so much that it didn't cut, no surprise there, but that these geniuses were *surprised* that steel doesn't slice through steel... :rofl  Why they had this assumption that the Norseman would be "slow" is beyond me, especially since the practicioner they had demonstrating "Viking" sword technique showed more speed than the guys demonstrating Japanese sword technique. And the the Japanese armor weighs more than a helm and mail shirt. An sparring match between the practicioners would have been more telling...the weapon+shield combo is a hell of a difficult problem for *any* single sword style to solve, especially your "standard" length katana which would lack a reach advantage. (A tachi or no-dachi more equivalent in size to a longsword vs. the shield would be more of a fair match).  Of course, I would have been more impressed by the "Viking" practicioners if their technique had borne any resemblance whatsoever to the style shown in I.33.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 10:38:39 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2009, 10:40:37 PM »
Dude, viking's do not need shields, they are arrow proof.


Ask around.





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Offline Saxman

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2009, 11:47:12 PM »
longsword vs. the shield


Speaking of one of my problems with their "research...."

THAT WAS NOT A LONGSWORD!!!!!

The longsword dates to the VERY late-12th century at the earliest. Blade is typically 36-42 inches long with a hilt designed for two hands. 99% of the fighting style is for TWO HANDS. Some longswords were light enough to use one-handed with a shield, but this was NOT COMMON.

The "Viking" sword was a transition between the Migration-period sword and the classic arming sword, with blades rarely more than 30" long, typically with parallel edges (until very late in the Viking period when you started to get more taper) of high-quality steel welded to a core of pattern-welded iron (beautiful swords, btw).

Also, that was a REALLY poor-quality shield. A Germanic warrior who could afford both mail AND a sword (that was prohibitively expensive at the time, this guy would have been a PRO) would probably have a shield made of several layers (I think they used 3-5) of wood. The planks of each layer would have been laid crosswise (so layer one up and down, layer two left to right, etc) and the whole thing would have been both backed and faced with linen (the shield in the episode was bare wood). In addition to the iron boss there would have been straps of iron across the face to help hold the planks together (as on the TV shield). The shield would have more often been edged with leather. The leather rim would have been soaked in water then allowed to shrink tight around the shield, which helped hold the whole thing together. Tests performed on a shield made in this fashion was EXTREMELY durable, to the point that even if the planks WERE broken or shattered, the linen facing and backing and the leather rim would hold the whole thing together and keep it usable for the duration of the engagement.

Oh, and Vikings wouldn't have thrown both spears at the same time like that. I don't know WHERE the hell they got THAT idea. I've been in communication with someone who actually re-enacts Viking age warfare as research for a project I'm working on and who's written a couple books and even built a late-Viking age (c. 1000 CE) Anglo-Saxon mead hall. Based on conversations I've had with him (unrelated, but applicable) what that Viking would have done was to approach that Samurai with his shield raised to defend against the arrows. He'd have one spear ready while the other was gripped in his shield hand. As he moved in to range he'd throw his first spear, then take the second and throw that one (actually, he could have three or four MORE spears at hand altogether). Depending on how he approaches the fight, he might decide to hold on to the last spear and use it hand-to-hand (contrary to popular impression, the SPEAR was the primary weapon of the shield wall) to take advantage of the greater reach while still maintaining the defense of his shield. Either way, I would have pressed in on the attack to deny the Samurai room to use either his Naginata or Kanabo (big weapons need room to swing. Push in, you take away his room and leverage). The added advantage of the spear is that as a thrusting weapon:

1) It's a lot more maneuverable at extremely close quarters

2) There's a good chance of penetrating a gap in the armor

And saying the Samurai were more skilled is the perpetuation of a myth that is exasperating at best (someone in our fencing class visited a Kendo class where the instructor said something to the effect that Western martial arts were nothing but clumsy hacking. She shut him up REALLY quick  :devil ). Weapons do NOT exist in a culture in the absence of an art to USE them. Your reference to I.33 (I've only learned small bits of it, as I focus more on the longsword--which btw, longsword has many cuts and guards similar to those used with the katana) is actually rather close to reality, as I.33 probably in part evolved from sword and round shield combat. However I.33 is designed for sword and buckler so while some techniques would have been applicable there's quite a bit that wouldn't have worked with a full-sized shield. A Viking warrior who could afford mail and a sword was a PROFESSIONAL--for that matter, the "Peasants with Pitchforks" imagery of Medieval warfare is horrendously flawed at best (the Germanic cultures of Northern Europe/Scandanavia and England had some of the BEST PROFESSIONAL INFANTRIES IN THE WORLD. There's a reason the Varangian Guard was legendary). He would have known EXACTLY how to use that equipment with just as much subtlety as the "nimbler" Samurai.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Motherland

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2009, 11:49:25 PM »
Have you not seen dogfights?

Offline Saxman

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2009, 12:40:01 AM »
This is even WORSE.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2009, 01:32:13 AM »
Sax
By long-sword I specifically meant a langen-schwert, a two-handed blade of greater size. Although, I must tell you, I am not at all sure that the definition of the term is anywhere near as consistent in English as it is in the fechtbuchs. Silver gets the point across much more clearly when he writes "two-handed sword" than all those continental obfuscators IMHO. :D


IIRC, during the actual warring period in Japan longer swords than were typical during the Tokugawa shogunate were common. These would have been more appropriate and effective for a battlefield with armored opposition and mixed weapons. The length we associate with a typical "katana" these days is convenient in a sword that will be carried constantly on a day-to-day basis. The small-sword/court sword was eventually developed in Europe for similar reasons.
 
The reason I put "Viking" sword technique in quotes is NOT because I believe the Viking period Scandinavians lacked martial art, but because I don't believe there is anyone who can credibly say they know specifically "Viking" technique. It would be more honest to say "These are some techniques we've evolved by experimentation/studing I.33/Talhoffer's "dueling shield"/etc that are probably close to what the Vikings used with their shields because of the principle of convergent evolution and continuity in Western martial art" But I suppose they would have lost the average basic cable viewer right then and there. :D

IMHO, it would have been more interesting to compare a 15th century samurai to a 15th century knight, simply because the two warriors are closer to being equivalent in their societal role and because we have much more detailed information about the knight's martial art.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Saxman

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2009, 02:49:34 AM »
Ah, ok, I misread your use of longsword. But the PROGRAM DID make the mistake of calling the Viking sword a longsword. Right away they sacrifice any credibility right there.

Oh, and then there's the part that the Samurai only "won" by a RIDICULOUSLY narrow margin (something like 520 to 480). It's not a land slide victory and is close enough to say that their respective equipment is sufficiently balancing that it's going to STRICTLY come down to chance or the skill level of the individual warrior.

I did some independent reading and the kanabo they gave the Samurai was PRIMARILY a mythical weapon to begin with and INCREDIBLY rare on an actual battlefield.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 02:52:00 AM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline texasmom

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2009, 02:56:59 AM »
Dudes, when I need a ninja attack, y'all are hired.
<S> Easy8
<S> Mac

Offline moot

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2009, 07:48:49 AM »
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Speed55

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2009, 08:45:56 AM »
The show is garbage.  The first episode was an american indian vs a gladiator.  At one point the indian gets punched in the face with spiked brass knuckles, then jumps back up and kills the gladiator..  really, really, stupid.
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Offline uptown

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2009, 09:15:32 AM »
 :rofl good one Moot  :lol
Lighten up Francis

Offline BnZs

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Re: Dumbest...Program...Ever...
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2009, 10:00:30 AM »
It's not a land slide victory and is close enough to say that their respective equipment is sufficiently balancing that it's going to STRICTLY come down to chance or the skill level of the individual warrior.

I did some independent reading and the kanabo they gave the Samurai was PRIMARILY a mythical weapon to begin with and INCREDIBLY rare on an actual battlefield.

I actually disagree...speaking strictly of samurai's single weapon vs. a sword&shield, the samurai would actually be at a tremendous disadvantage. Especially considering that he would be unfamiliar with the shield. And a 15lbs club or anything else is absurd for a human being of normal physical strength, the blows easily avoided, deflected, or "choked up".
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."