Author Topic: Major complaint....  (Read 4857 times)

Offline daddog

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2009, 01:28:37 PM »
Quote
Maybe there should be a deadline to have orders submitted to Staff.  Then FSO staff can take a quick look and make certain they meet the rules, then send them out.  I don't know, I just get frustrated having to wait for the orders when the other side has their squads informed and planning.
Their is a dead line. Wed night. Like you I hate waiting for the orders.

Problem is real life gets in the way, sometimes their reasons are quite legitimate. On the flip side sometimes C.O.'s totally drop the ball when it is their turn to CiC and they don't do them for one reason or another and then tell the CM's Wed they can't do the orders. C.O.'s that do this twice are removed from FSO, but that does not help the moment, it only insures they don't do it to everyone again in the future.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2009, 03:15:42 PM »
I am totally against an alt restrictions for fighters, at least for this particular theater and timeframe. P-51s, P-38s, and especially P-47s could and did cruise at 30K. The ability to cruise at these altitudes and *begin* the dogfight there is what gives these escorts a needed edge (especially the Jugs) against the generally more maneuverable 109s that also eat the P-planes alive in thrust-weight as it gets lower.

22K on the other hand, is a perfectly reasonable  bomber altitude, that doesn't require the 190 interceptors to completely leave the altitudes where they have *some* performance left. If the buffs are at 22K, the escorts can still climb to 35K or whatever ridiculous number you want to name, but because this puts them at least ~2 miles from 22K buffs, they run the strong risk of interceptors being able to come in and take at least one good bite before slipping away scot-free.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 05:29:55 PM by BnZs »
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Offline HighTone

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2009, 03:49:30 PM »
I have no complaints. But I normally don't anyway. The LCA had a great time.


I would like to thank the 327th SteelTalons and the VF-17 Jolly Rogers for a great job at escorting us. My group got a little spilt up some at take off because of disco's and lost drones, but you guys stuck with us the whole way. You guys were never much out of Icon range, and were right on top of it when the stuff hit the fan. Thanks and  :salute

 :salute 327th SteelTalons
 :salute  VF-17 Jolly Rogers

Didn't know or seem to bad to me about the use of Range Vox, but I can understanding what you saying. Our bomber group was using our squad vox, so what you heard most of was probably us escorts.

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Offline morfiend

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2009, 04:17:40 PM »
I personally dont think ALT is an issue,sure it'd be nice if the LW had a few Hi alt models available but it's liveable with the planeset you have.On the otherhand the 32 plane limit can be a problem as not only do icons not show up but even the dot dissappears only to randomly reappear at the whim of the server.I'm not sure how icon range affects this if at all,I've seen this same thing in the mains on TT at full icon range.
Until HTC changes this we all have to live with it,but I wonder if something can be done on the part of the planners to help with this.I'm not suggesting no formations and quite frankly I'm not sure what if anything will help other than somehow limiting the numbers in a given area.Possibly a timing thing,maybe stagger groups,I dont know!!

 All in all I appaud the CM's on their fine work as I'm sure it's a thankless task. I'd add 1 more thing instead of complaining why dont we all try and come up with ideas and toss them around to see if there is a way to fairly work out some these difficulties.

   :salute

Offline Shifty

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2009, 04:24:17 PM »
I have no complaints. But I normally don't anyway. The LCA had a great time.


I would like to thank the 327th SteelTalons and the VF-17 Jolly Rogers for a great job at escorting us. My group got a little spilt up some at take off because of disco's and lost drones, but you guys stuck with us the whole way. You guys were never much out of Icon range, and were right on top of it when the stuff hit the fan. Thanks and  :salute

 :salute 327th SteelTalons
 :salute  VF-17 Jolly Rogers

Didn't know or seem to bad to me about the use of Range Vox, but I can understanding what you saying. Our bomber group was using our squad vox, so what you heard most of was probably us escorts.

You guys did a great job staying together from what I could see. There was no problem staying with you and not really any bad stragglers to worry about. The sky was clear until a couple of seconds after you guys call bombs away than all hell broke loose and it seemed FW-190s were everywhere. Honestly if you don't get hit before bomb drop I can't think of a worse time for the enemy to hit than right after bombs away when all the formations are turning and reforming. Right when everybody's pants are down. ;)

The range vox thing is becoming more common, it may not seem like a big thing but there was constant chatter on range stepping all over anybody trying communicate on squad vox. Not trying to be a butt  it's just easier if communications meant for intersquad stay on squad vox. When you have info or instructions for all squads in your mission use range then. Especially in a case like last night when you guys are mission lead. When something comes over range channel we know we need to listen up. If there's constant chatter you start tuning it out. We're pretty sure you don't want to be subjected to our non important stuff like  Ensign Twister being ordered to shave Lt. Eldo's back last night.  :D

One more thing HighTone, we really did a lousy job covering you guys last night when the you know what hit the fan. Hopefully if we fly together again we'll be a little more up on our game.

<S>
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 04:32:58 PM by Shifty »

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Offline Krusty

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2009, 11:16:57 PM »
A few comments.

First, it's not a short icons issue. It's a "dots won't display" issue!!! I saw the giant cloud of P-38s, horribly thick.. For about 2-seconds I saw what looked like a bomber formation show up (inside 3K, close, I could define each bomber and one was on fire) then it disappeared.

We ran into this crap nonstop during Rangoon, so I've had some experience in it, so I pushed in through the cloud of 38s. Miraculously most of them were kind of busy (save for the 3 that tried to HO me and kept going). And then I saw a bomber formation pop back, and disappear. Then 2 popped up in different locations, went away, and suddenly all 3 showed up, and I finally got icons maybe at 1.5k. Not having any real reference of speed because of their sudden appearance I tried to make an attack run but ended up ramming one (again, they showed up at the last minute, I had little to no time to adjust course or make a real attack run). Dots issue, NOT icon range issue. The system just can't even begin to display all the folks in one area.

Now lets see if I got this. You fly fighters that go roughly twice as fast as my bomber,

Try this on for size... a CLEAN 190A-8 (not counting drag and 130-odd pounds from DT rack, not counting extra 300lbs from 30mm guns) at 30K is about 25-30mph faster than a B17/B24. Your engines were "roaring" because you probably took 25% for the entire sortie and had enough to get there and back, were running full throttle to the point the REAL engines on a B17/24 would have melted away, and the rate of closure for said 190A-8 is so slow you can shoot them from your tail guns 5x over before they can land a single hit on you.

How's that for sizing up the disparity? I did the pre-frame testing for DGS. I know what these things are capable of.


Looking at the score, its apparent that despite the lack of any of your recommended restrictions, the Axis was able to slaughter the bombers.  Squire had to change the score for bombers.  First, the bombers can't climb much higher than 20,000 feet and make the targets by T+60.  Second, without formations, there will not be sufficient bombers to inflict enough damage on the ground targets. 

Even in Rangoon we still could win a frame by killing bombers, DESPITE major problems with displays, icons, side balancing, etc. Just because the overwhelmed side ends up winning does NOT negate the fact a problem exists. Even underdogs win sometimes. It's why folks root for 'em.

Also, remove formation and... get this! HAVE MORE BOMBER PILOTS!!!! Historically you wouldn't have 5 allied fighters at 30K for every bomber. They had thousands of bombers in the sky, and "mere" hundreds of planes. The escorts would also have shifts, one leading in, one over target, and one picking up on the way out of the target. So divide those "hundreds" of fighters in thirds and you'd get what would actually be present during any combat with the US bombers at any time. It's a damned landslide. These problems and more are a big reason FSO is going down the toilet these days (gameplay wise).

1.  Last night, the sides had approximately the ratio that Squire designed--48% Axis and 52% Allied.  It was around 46% Axis vs. 54% Allied.  Still, the Axis scored a major victory.

2.  The CM team can merely create the rules and balance the setup on paper.  We spend a lot of time and discussion on how to balance each and every month's setup, and how to make sure it is playable and will be fun.  Once Friday night arrives, things can happen.

3.  The CM team cannot control attendence, player execution during the frame, nor control the CIC's orders, outside of the standing FSO rules, and the special rules for that setup.  If squads show up with a low turnout, it can mess up balance and plans.  Individual squadrons acting on their own can mess up another squad's experience during FSO.  The CIC's orders can mess up another squad's experience during FSO.  If you see something in the orders that you don't like, speak up.  Give the CIC some feedback, prior to the frame.

In sum, we want every FSO to be flyable, enjoyable, and competitive each and every week.  Sometimes we realize that, and occasionally we don't. 

Only any time you get late-war allied-v-LW, it's always 30-38K US planes gang-banging LW planes that can't even stay in level flight. If LW planes fly lower, guess what? The US planes still come down and still have a giant E/speed/diving/zooming/positioning advantage. The only thing worse than a 35K P-47 is being at 20K while one bounces you from 35K. Many of the setups are lopsided, and they focus too much on numbers/percentages and say "screw the gameplay" -- and in the end folks don't have fun, or don't like the FSO, wait for the next one, or in general start getting the perception that maybe something's wrong with how FSO currently works.


You ask me, having 500+ players is only adding to the problem. Was much more enjoyable when only half this number of players migrated in from the MA, bringing their lame tactics with them.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2009, 08:35:04 AM »

Try this on for size... a CLEAN 190A-8 (not counting drag and 130-odd pounds from DT rack, not counting extra 300lbs from 30mm guns) at 30K is about 25-30mph faster than a B17/B24. Your engines were "roaring" because you probably took 25% for the entire sortie and had enough to get there and back, were running full throttle to the point the REAL engines on a B17/24 would have melted away, and the rate of closure for said 190A-8 is so slow you can shoot them from your tail guns 5x over before they can land a single hit on you.

How's that for sizing up the disparity? I did the pre-frame testing for DGS. I know what these things are capable of.

QFT.





Also, remove formation and... get this! HAVE MORE BOMBER PILOTS!!!! Historically you wouldn't have 5 allied fighters at 30K for every bomber. They had thousands of bombers in the sky, and "mere" hundreds of planes. The escorts would also have shifts, one leading in, one over target, and one picking up on the way out of the target. So divide those "hundreds" of fighters in thirds and you'd get what would actually be present during any combat with the US bombers at any time. It's a damned landslide. These problems and more are a big reason FSO is going down the toilet these days (gameplay wise).

The problem is Krusty, who the F wants to fly flippin' bombers? Get the ratio right and most of the Allied side would not want to show up. I agree it is a bit whiny to want formations for defense when you have the opportunity to have both escorts AND the opportunity to fly stacked with other buff pilots for self-defense...but having formations on so as to have the sheer numbers of bombers and bombs needed for the scenario, that is an argument I can't easily refute. Maybe someday this nasty job will be taken over by A.I.s....

Only any time you get late-war allied-v-LW, it's always 30-38K US planes gang-banging LW planes that can't even stay in level flight. If LW planes fly lower, guess what? The US planes still come down and still have a giant E/speed/diving/zooming/positioning advantage. The only thing worse than a 35K P-47 is being at 20K while one bounces you from 35K. .

Krusty, limiting the buffs to 22K would bring balance to the problem. At that alt the interceptors can still somewhat perform. The interceptors are the primary targets of the escorts. Your talk of a 35K P-47 bouncing a 20K 109 is silly, since the P-47 will almost certainly be compressed...needless to say, their comes a point where being any higher than the opponent does nothing additional to gain the initiative advantage, and in fact reduces it. You consistently ignore the fact that extreme high alt performance is a needed advantage for the P-planes against the 109s which otherwise have great superiority in turn and thrust/weight as things get lower.

I don't know about the rest of the scenario, but in MY neck of the woods the main problem for Axis was people not showing up to fly Axis, so even though we drug the escort fighters we were facing into the weeds where they should have been dogmeat, the odds were too lopsided. Axis is Axis' own worst enemy perhaps?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 08:57:50 AM by BnZs »
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Offline MjTalon

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2009, 08:53:02 AM »
Well here is what i suggest:


MPH Cap on the bombers. No faster than 180-230MPH. Yes it would take longer to get to the target but did the bombers in WW2 fly at full power for their mission? Negative, they only flew at full power only on take off and even when climbing out they used a lower power setting. The thing is, when you have B17/B24s doing 280+ on level flight the closure rate is too slow for the interceptors and they get chewed to bits.

Closure rates were much higher i assume than what they appear to be in Aces High and i personally think with creditable facts that the bombers flew at max cruise settings to conserve fuel. They wouldn't make it to Berlin and back home on full power constantly, no way. So why don't we set a MPH cap for the bombers to a reasonable MPH that won't make the buffs sitting bath tubs but won't allow the closure rate of the escorts to be a snail and tortoise race.

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Offline DrDea

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2009, 09:39:18 AM »

These problems and more are a big reason FSO is going down the toilet these days (gameplay wise).

You ask me, having 500+ players is only adding to the problem. Was much more enjoyable when only half this number of players migrated in from the MA, bringing their lame tactics with them.

  I call BS on going down the toilet.These guys work hard to make these things go off and its not always perfect. Some disgruntled assclown is ALWAYS going to cry about the results but I always have a good time in these FSO's.Even if we tool around and dont hit enemies. Its the camaraderie, not oh look at me.I got some kills.
 Im glad to see that many numbers flying this.Its a whole new game and the opposite of the MA. So what if the numbers cause minor issues.Its the same for everyone. Myself I never saw what you described.I was splat in the middle of it and never had an issue. Maby your vid card is like the attitude your showing here.Unfit for this envioronment.
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Offline shreck

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2009, 10:19:10 AM »
The UNFORGIVEN flew >9< sectors, wasn't gonna happen at 15K. Unforgiven bombers made target at 23K the escort varried from 23K-30K. Our 38s still had tremendous issues with trying to get fast enough to engage the 190s, seems the 190s were doing just fine!!

Offline Hajo

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2009, 10:36:47 AM »
We encountered at least 30 fighters.  A mix of 109G2s and 190A8s and A5s.

We were in P47D11s.  There were 12 of us.  We were about 1 sector away from the B26s

we were escorting at the time.

Our P47s were at 28K.  Apparently we did take some interceptors away from the bombers.

With the number of fighters we engaged we knew it would be over soon for us.

The fight was from 28K to the deck and was a huge furball and a great deal of Fun.

Very good CMs and CiCs.  You made it fun for the majority.

That is what FSOs are about!  History with fun mixed in.  Well done! :salute
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Offline Shifty

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2009, 11:14:02 AM »
I don't know about the rest of the scenario, but in MY neck of the woods the main problem for Axis was people not showing up to fly Axis, so even though we drug the escort fighters we were facing into the weeds where they should have been dogmeat, the odds were too lopsided. Axis is Axis' own worst enemy perhaps?

Where do you get this? Some of the best squadrons in AH are Axis and fly FSO example JG-11, and JG-2.  It seems both of those squad were too busy whuppin butt to notice how everything was stacked against them.

I see you guys complaining about bomber speeds and altitudes and how unreal it is. So is knowing your enemy has to be over target within 60 minutes of taking off. How could you be complaining about historical accuracy when you know what they are going to hit and the precise time they have to hit it by? From the score it seems the Axis won, so why all the complaints? How can you complain when guys that fly Axis commonly get to fly the same planes in the FSO they fly regularly in the Main Arenas? If we have a PTO scenario our squad is lucky if it get one frame in our normal aircraft and that's if we get a PTO setup. I'd say one frame in 10 we get to fly what we normally fly otherwise we're in something unfamiliar. Everybody can find something to whine about, however most choose to just enjoy the frame.

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline Krusty

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2009, 11:18:36 AM »
Alt limits don't work. Guess what happens? You set an alt limit of "X" and EVERYbody and their frickin' uncle is at "X" every time.


Shifty: How's about giving us 5 hours of open hunting time to hit the bomber stream before it's even over the target, hrm?? Limiting it only to 60 is unrealistic, because most times we can't get to them or find them until they're over the target we're defending. NO radar, NO warning, NO tracks plotted on big maps, NO ground-control directing us into killing position....

We do have to make considerations for gameplay, but the performance capabilities of bombers in this game are often FASTER than the fighters that historically shot them down.

EDIT. PS did you know the Ki67 can dive past 450mph with no problems?

Offline Shifty

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2009, 11:23:01 AM »
Shifty: How's about giving us 5 hours of open hunting time to hit the bomber stream before it's even over the target, hrm?? Limiting it only to 60 is unrealistic, because most times we can't get to them or find them until they're over the target we're defending. NO radar, NO warning, NO tracks plotted on big maps, NO ground-control directing us into killing position....

You think you're the only side that has to deal with this? It works both ways Axis and Allied when there are bomber missions.

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline Krusty

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2009, 11:34:28 AM »
Surely you're not saying Ju88s are as hard to catch and kill as B17s are???

Not only are they slower by 25-30mph, but this speed is reached at a max of 17k. They can barely get above 20k loaded, as well. Hardly a fair comparison.

As for the warning... The LW had bases, stations, airfields all over France. If the allies wanted to get to Germany they had a long and dangerous path to get there. The allies hardly patrolled over france to defend from incoming attacks on Britian, as well (not to mention most attacks ceased as Germany was almost entirely defensive in the West). I'm not picking a fight on this point. I'm just saying if we wanted to make it "realistic" we'd have 1000 bombers per mission (without slaved laser gunners) flying at max cruise speeds, often with no escorts, or when the escorts (a fraction of the total bombers) were present they could be spread across 500 miles of bomber stream, and the LW would have a turkey shoot most times they took off.

I don't think anybody wants that. Nobody would show up as allies I bet. Most allied pilots went the entire tour without seeing an enemy, let alone getting a kill. I'm just saying it could be far worse, if you throw out the old "how's this for realistic" argument.