What's the Brewster?

[moot]

So, "what if" planes make the hamster wheel less hamster like?

;-)

Sakai

Who said what if?  That's the title of that thread, but the planes in the post linked aren't.  Unless you think the Me410, Beaufighter, Yak-3, Tu-2, Ki-44, are "what if" planes.  Those planes answer your question as quoted in my post.  I guess I have to spell that out.  There's another thread where at least one of the better informed players lists other models that would be both competitive in the LWMA, and useful for historical purposes, but I'm not gonna dig it up.

I understand your love for the MA, Billy the Circus boy in his shiny new everything is quite attractive, but the idea that it's a WWII flight sim as opposed to the AvA is uncomfortably ignorant.

You just love the strawman don't ya. Love for the MA and Billy in his shiny new everything?  You "understand" your fabricated strawmanized interpretation of my perspective, you mean.  Everything in the plane set is 60+ years old. My retort was to your assertion that the only attraction to the LWMA is beating on early flying coffins in perk planes.  All about the plane when you're in a P40B?  What then is it about when you're in a 190A5 fighting the knife fight with spits and P38s?  Ta152 vs Spit9s and P40 stall fight?
Your pretention that any one arena or plane is more honorable than the rest is poop.

As for the AvA. I don't fly there so I can't say for myself, but none of the feedback I've heard from trustworthy players is that it's about as crappy as the MA. Sounds just like the old CT where a couple of squads totally skewed the odds and bragged about it.  I personally don't care either way.  I fly pretty much one plane and I doubt it's in there most of the time.  They can do whatever they want in there... I'll try it out when it's clear that there really is consistently good fights.  
I would expect to be called on it if I started pontificating about the MA being so much better than AvA.  Which I don't.  Apples and oranges.

[Sakai]

You just love the strawman don't ya.

Yes, I've posted longer, more comprehensive lists myself--more than once.  I guess that means I win?  Thanks.  POint remains, early mid war has more gaps than the late war, the AvA arena has more needs than does the rodent entertainment society. 

Strawman?  Oh my.  Since your point is moot, like your name, and your argument is inane, senseless, and clealry anger based, what would you like me to respond to, exactly?

Did you want a tissue now?  Did you somehow prove something with that paltry list of planes someone else published? 

It's not pontificating when it's a fact.  It's cool if someone loves the MA, I will fly there (see the Stuka?  It's me), but saying one is somehow a pure experience because the planes are newer, which is the implication, is not terribly thoughtful.  The Brewster might be a hangar queen in the MA--over half the AC are.  I've gone for days seeing only 4 fighter types and 2 bombers make up more than 95% of the rides [until people learned how to fly the P-38]. 

So what's your point? 

The Finns deserve their ride, the AvA can use it, and yes, early war is more meaningful for me for the reasons enunciated.

Why do you care?  If I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry. 

But again, your point would be what exactly?

Mine is a simple point, nothing to get your panties in a wad over.  It's more about getting people to be thoughtful and try the AvA arena.  "There's only 20 people there . . ."  Yep, and so it's probably 10 to 10, well matched, one on one fights, actually relevant to WWII, or interesting action of some kind, and no hamster wheel. 

So by all means, enjoy the gang and bang away in a 10 v 1 excitment spree the whole family will love, but you're fostering the ignorance that the AvA is somehow less interesting because it is not always "Spit Vs. Tiffy with vulchfest at field 19" wow, never seen that one before!!!!!

Sakai

[moot]

So by all means, enjoy the gang and bang away in a 10 v 1 excitment spree the whole family will love
[etc]

Not even worth it.

<S>

[Enker]

So by all means, enjoy the gang and bang away in a 10 v 1 excitment spree the whole family will love.

Sakai

That is what 4Chan said.

[Bronk]

the FM2 is lethal, should you choose to fight it..  there in lies the rub, if things get dicey.. it can be ran from by just about anything.  I flew the FM2 quit a bit for a tour and thats what annoyed me to the point of dropping it from my "line up"  you can put alot of work into a fight only to have your opponent simply... leave.

You know how to fix that.... give them your 6. They always come back... always.

[Wingnutt]

You know how to fix that.... give them your 6. They always come back... always.

 

like clockwork.. they turn around make a 400+ mph pick pass and run some more...  then come back...  and again and again..

basically its all about who has the most fuel 

[Demetrious]

The weight you are using here is a bit too high for the Model 239 and a bit too low for the F2A-2. With full tanks and 4*50 cals Model 239 weights around 5672lbs. Also it seems that you've used the 950hp power setting for the Model 239, not WEP (1000hp). The weight you've used for the F2A is with 2 guns only and with only 660lbs of fuel. The weight with 4 guns and with full tanks is 6500lbs flat.

So more comparable power to weight ratios are the following:

Model 239: 0,176 hp/lb
F2A-2: 0,185 hp/lb

So the difference in power loading is actually considerably smaller. And as others have mentioned F2A-2 barely saw combat.

This is entirely possible, since I took the values right off of the relevant Wikipedia page. Sadly, that's about the most accurate reference I have at hand without spending six hours on Google. As for the B-239s WEP setting, I wasn't aware it had WEP, though the difference between water or water-methnohol injection systems and simple "redlining" of the engine past it's max safe power settings is often vague. 50 HP power increase is rather less then I'd expect from a true water-injection system, so 1,000HP being the WEP setting for the B-239 sounds entirely reasonable (as 50HP is about the power increase one would expect from redlining the engine.) What does your data show the military power settings of the F2A-2 to be? Is 1,200 HP the value with WEP? Now I'm curious as to how much of the added power of the F2A-2 was innate and how much was from WEP.

The F2A-2 didn't see combat at ALL. It was the F2A-3 and its export version.

I kind of wonder what they did with all their F2A-2s... did they just bolt extra equipment onto them to make them -3s?

And as others have mentioned F2A-2 barely saw combat.

Sometimes I wonder just how important historical accuracy is in a game where you attack Lancasters with Spitfires, etc. Still, it's a valid point, since one has to draw the line somewhere. It's the same reason we have the P-51D and not the decidedly more uber P-51K. I don't think the F2A-2 would break anything, but still.

But honestly, if the performance specs are that close, it's no big deal anyway. And without the life raft, tail hook, and other accouterments, it's likely that the B-239 is a "leaner" ship overall- less power, but better weight balance across the airframe. Though that's pure speculation on my part.

Double too bad, because it was NOT the F2A-2 that saw combat. The American Buffaloes at Midway was the much heavier and underpowered F2A-3, (~1200hp and 6700lbs loaded) and the export model used by the RAF and Dutch was the same aircraft.

No, the export model used by the RAF was quite different. It was custom modified, and it was based on the F2A-2, not the -3.

The B-339E, or Brewster Mk I as it was designated in British service, was initially intended to be fitted with an export-approved Wright R-1820-G-105 Cyclone engine with a 1,000 hp/746 kW (peak takeoff)[12] engine. The Brewster aircraft delivered to British and Commonwealth air forces were significantly altered from the B-339 type sold to the Belgium and French forces in accordance with their purchase order. The Brewster factory removed the Navy life raft container and arrestor hook, while adding many new items of equipment,[13] including a British Mk III reflector gun sight, a gun camera, a larger fixed pneumatic-tire tail wheel, fire extinguisher, engine shutters, a larger battery, and reinforced armor plating and armored glass behind the canopy windshield.[14]

The Brewster Model B-339E, as modified and supplied to Great Britain was distinctly inferior in performance to the F2A-2 (Model B-339) from the original order. It had a less powerful (1,000 hp/746 kW) engine compared to the F2A-2's 1,200 hp (895 kW) Cyclone, yet was substantially heavier due to all of the additional modifications (some 900 lb/408 kg).

As you can see, the Brewster Mk I was a special, custom-made bit of retardation on the part of the RAF. All the accounts of how the RAF Brewster squadrons got spanked have always amused me tremendously, because it was a disaster entirely of their own making (as was the poor performance of the F2A-3 in the hands of the US Navy at Midway, for that matter.)

I don't mind being told that the F2A-2 shouldn't be in the game because of historical reasons (at least half the reason for the plane is scenario use, after all,) but you could take a few seconds to read the Wikipedia article before you get snippy.

[Die Hard]

I wasn't aware it had WEP, though the difference between water or water-methnohol injection systems and simple "redlining" of the engine past it's max safe power settings is often vague.

WEP does not mean water injection. Most WWII fighters did not have ADI of any kind. WEP simply means wartime emergency power and is usually just an increase in manifold pressure.

[Saxman]

Basing your arguments on a Wiki article isn't going to win you a lot of points. Quick reference? Yes, but you better find other sources to back you up.

All the Brewsters at Midway--the only ones to see actual combat action in American service unless you count a single strafing run on a Japanese submarine--were F2A-3s. The F2A-2s would have been either rotated stateside and reassigned to training duties, or as you put it, "bolted on" the stuff the Navy added to the F2A-3 to "upgrade" them.

The Brewster Model B-339E, as modified and supplied to Great Britain was distinctly inferior in performance to the F2A-2 (Model B-339) from the original order. It had a less powerful (1,000 hp/746 kW) engine compared to the F2A-2's 1,200 hp (895 kW) Cyclone, yet was substantially heavier due to all of the additional modifications (some 900 lb/408 kg).

And you're in such a hurry to lobby for the "superior" F2A-2 it sounds like you're completely disregarding these couple lines. Less power + greater weight, resulting in significantly reduced performance. Essentially the exact same thing that happened with the F2A-3, without the benefit of the more powerful engine (arguably, the B-339E would perform even WORSE than the -3 since it saw almost the same weight gain at the same time as reducing the engine power).

[Die Hard]

These are lies, and they make me sadface.

I hope this thread serves as a lesson for you, so you don't go around calling people liars in the future without actually knowing what you're talking about.

[ACE]

whats the brewsters arnament?

[Karnak]

whats the brewsters arnament?

Four .50 cals, same as the P-51B and FM2.

[AWwrgwy]

Sometimes I wonder just how important historical accuracy is in a game where you attack Lancasters with Spitfires, etc. Still, it's a valid point, since one has to draw the line somewhere. It's the same reason we have the P-51D and not the decidedly more uber P-51K. I don't think the F2A-2 would break anything, but still.

How exactly is a P-51D built in Dallas, (P-51K), uber?  Is it the Aeroproducts propeller that no one really liked?  Because otherwise, they are identical.

Must be some sort of Texas ingenuity.



wrongway

[Oldman731]

How exactly is a P-51D built in Dallas, (P-51K), uber?  Is it the Aeroproducts propeller that no one really liked?  Because otherwise, they are identical.

Must be some sort of Texas ingenuity.

My guess is that he meant the H.

- oldman

[StokesAk]

What Aremerment did it have?