FSO: Operation Husky - Frame 2 Results

[AKKaz]

Edit:  Just did a quick check of logs and:
Thawk
22:03:22 Departed from Field #110 in a Seafire Mk IIc
23:01:37 Shot down a Ju 88A-4 flown by roadkill.

Roadkill was shot down inside of 60 minutes and that should just about cover it.

It doesn't matter to me on the whole score issue, as all scoring is subjective to each CM on hosting the event.  Plus, scoring I know is important to some and not important to others.

But have to say, if using this as meeting the T+60 rule as a definition does creat a whole issue with planning and timing.  Does a attack force lifting off have to just meet any attacker on the way to target?, or just the defensive attack crew of the target?  What if the defense assigned is pulled to another location before the attack group reachs target, does this count if late?  Does the forward escort intercept the defense count as in time?

The rule, and I understand its purpose, calls for an attack by a credible force using rockets/bombs on released on target by T+60.  Though many targets get hard to find and just getting to some is hard enough within that time frame, and  it does seem ridiculous for 1 min being outside the window and penalized.  But by using the ands, if's and but's as leeway there really is no need to have the rule.  If it gets to be subjective to according to all parameters, then the subjectivity opens up to visibility, cloud layer, winds, etc.

As far as other aspects or the frame, the written orders are the orders.  The maps themselves that are sent with the orders are for ease and aid of the units.  It is up to each tasked squadron enforce the orders as written, and the routings and maps are subjective and given out as aids to everyone.

each tasked squadron can make their own assessment as to whther to follow the flight path given or make adjustments to the "mapped" version sent to best suit the situation that is required.  The written orders are the directives and it is up to each unit to either support or target assigned objectives.

Again, just my interpretation (which doesnt mean alot).  Since I have many concerns and disagreements with the scoring program in most FSO's, it doesn't matter if everyone was given a thousand points for just showing up. I would hate to see anymore things rearanged because of "scoring".

[ghostdancer]

First off yes my math was wrong and it was T+61 when the ship first took damage.

Second yes the T+60 attack rule is a little flexible. By this I mean that it is up to the CMs interpretation. This is why I request the Axis and the Allied orders to their squads. I take look at these orders and see if the CiC has planned an attack that can hit their targets within T+60. Or if they planned a strike that has no chance of even getting within the same sector by T+60.

Now that said quite a few things can happen along the way during the actual frame. An attack force may be intercepted, like what happened in frame 1. The Axis force meant to hit A25 in frame 1 ran smack dab into an Allied force. Results was no Axis planes assigned to A25 made it. As a CM would I penalize for this? No I wouldn't but I would go back to the each sides orders and check their plans, do a little more digging, to find out what happened and to make sure it was just do to the flow and ebb or battle and not something planned by the Axis.

We implemented the T+60 rules and the credible force rule to make sure that players / squads on each side got to see action or the possibility of action in an acceptable time frame. Previous years, like back in 2003 and such I squad might fly around until T+90 with no contact because the other side planned to hit their targets late in the frame hoping to catching the defenders landing t refuel. This result in many complaints over players not enjoying flying around for 90 minutes bored. Hence the T+60 rule.

The T+60 rule is that you must plan and try to execute your attack by T+60. Obviously good defenders should pick up and start attacking and incoming force as soon as they are detected .. meaning when I go to the logs when somebody raises a question over T+60 I go and look to see if and when the attacking force took damage (I just didn't do it in this case since I was pressed for time this weekend). If they were engaged then I can judge what happened and if they were making a good faith effort to hit their target as planned in their orders by T+60.

In this case they were in my opinion.

Now on top of the T+60 rule we had to implement the credible force rule. Why? Because back in 2007 CiCs started sending in just 1 or 2 aircraft to buzz a target. Basically flash it and engage it defenders, which technically fulfilled the T+60 rule and then allowed them to hit the base at later time .. again trying to catch the defenders out of place or refueling. However, sending in just 1 plane .. yeah technically acceptable but definitely did follow the spirit or the event or make for a good time for the defenders. So we put the credible force rule in place.

Also on the flip side we an issue with some CiCs deciding to abandon the defense of bases all together; sacrificing one base so they could beef up their forces elsewhere. So we also applied the credible force rules to defenders. Now while most attackers would prefer no defenders at a base, some did find it boring. Also besides that it lead to some attack forces being much largers than expected leading to pig piling (attack force got the added amount of defenders not defending) or the reverse and attack force ran into a massive defense force over one base. Being outnumbered 3 or 4 to 1 also was not a good thing and nobody like that.

So credible force was applied to both attack and defense.

Both rules try to give CiCs some flexibility on timing there attacks and deploying their forces. But they are also aimed at ensuring or the possibility of fun (action) for those involved and with a reasonable chance of success (not 6 defenders facing off versus 40 attackers). As CMs we constantly tweak to try to make sure tat the event is fun and challenging and for us not to get to restrictive but put things in place that for lack of better words makes sure their is some balance if you understand what I mean.

So yes, each CM interprets the rules, research each issue brought up and decides if their was a violation or not.

[Hamltnblue]

Thanks Ghost
For those anal about counting minutes or seconds when trying to find a CV group 6 sectors from the start point feel comfortable with our buddy blackboy (From the logs)

Blackboy
22:03:40 Departed from Field #57 in a Ju 88A-4
22:59:27 Captured by enemy forces

An attack is when the run begins not when something is hit, because sometimes nothing is hit. Blackboy was taken down with 33 seconds to spare.  Are ya's happy now?
Some here need to get a life and stop nit picking everything in the game.
We have a small amount of people setting up a pretty complex scenario in a short time frame.  Then we have CiC's that have to put orders together in a couple of days and try to make 250+ people on each side happy.  When all is done and most have had a great time, all we can say is You were a minute or 2 late? and not great job and good game?
Get a life already.

Edit:  Oops forgot 

[Jaxxon]

Every effort was expended to find the CV before T+60, if our target would have been static there would be no debate

[PFactorDave]

Honestly, quibbling over T+61 when it is clear that the attack group was operating in good faith is silly.  Definitely within the purview of the CM running the Frame to make that call in my opinion...  The complaint over the A56/A57 issue is a bit more debatable.  Perhaps the fairest option would be to calculate the possible extremes and split the difference.  For instance...  If the attack planes had turned toward the target that the 109s were protecting, the 109s would have engaged before bomb release...  Thus reducing the effectiveness of the attack.  However, engaging at the high altitude would have put the 109s at a disadvantage...  So also reduce their effectiveness.  We know that the Jugs did a  X number of points on their target because they were allowed to attack unopposed...  Then got mauled by the 109s doing Y points of damage because they were low and slow.  So, give the Allies half credit for the Jug attack on the base, and the Axis half of the points for shooting down the Jugs...  I don't know where that would leave the totals, but it seems fair to me.

The stickier subject, in my slightly biased view  , is the LVT assault on V5.  The CM design was unwinnable for the Allies.  I cannot think of a scenario where the Allies changed tactics and won the battle presented.  That score should simply be discarded, in my opinion.  Not considered toward the victory or loss of the frame for either side.  It isn't fair to penalize the Allies for bad design.  And the Axis powers really aren't cheated, since it was such an unfair episode to start.

It really doesn't matter though.  I love FSO, but I couldn't tell you for certain which side won or lost any of the past few months worth of events.

 

[Qrsu]

It may come across as a biased opinion... but I say this sincerely. Who cares about the score in the end? This is parallel to the fight vs score debate of the MA... most people just want to create an experience and simply view the stats as a bi-product. 

[WxMan]

Concerning the Axis attack on the CV:

From the Squad Ops Rules Page:

- All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance, (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron.

IMHO rules are rules, even though I disagree and lobbied against the second part of this rule when it was added because I expected situations like this.

If we start making exceptions, we will need lawyers for each frame as precedence’s will have been set.

My suggestion is to score this for the Allies.

Concerning A56/A57:

Yes a mistake on the map was made. However the map is used as a guide, a few CM's include only a blank map with their objectives. The written objectives have always been the official document. The objectives sent to every squad had the correct target. Not only did the Allied CiC make a mistake, but by my count at least 67 individuals that received the objectives on the allied side failed to catch it also.

The long and short of it that Axis defended the correct field and the Allies attacked the wrong one.

My suggestion is to score this for the Axis.

Concerning the GV's:

Everyone knew going in that this part of the frame was experimental. Not all facets could be known. It truly was unfair to the Allies. However as a result, some good suggestions to improve this portion were offered.
My suggestion is to abandon the score for the GV portion.

IMHO the CM’s as a group should be consistent in applying the rules from event to event so that Cic's have a rock solid basis as they prepare their orders.
 
 

[ghostdancer]

Gentlemen,

Enough is enough. To put it simply I decide if it is a valid attack or not.

I got the Axis orders and an attack was planned to hit the target before T+60. A question was brought up, which is a valid question, if they did or did not. You do not have the logs that I do.

22:03:09 = First spawn by an Axis player
22:03:22 = First Spawn of 353rd Fighter Group (Axis Bombers)
22:04:15 = First Spawn of The Blind Bats (Axis Escort)
22:50:38 = First damage done by allies on Axis bombers (per CM damage logs .. First damage involving Damned SE, DmdGordo fires on and hits Taz)
22:50:39 = First damage done by axis bombers on allies (per CM damage logs .. First damage involving 353rd, Taz fires on and hits DmdGordo)
23:01:37 = RoadKill (JU88) killed by Allies
23:03:09 = T+60
23:03:12 = Axis escort does first damage to allies (per CM damage logs .. First damage involving The Blind bats)
23:04:09 = First damage done to a ship of C110 by Axis bombers (bomb hit)
23:04:12 = Axis escorts scores first kill


I have already stated that rules have to be flexible because an exact interpretation of the rules, advocated by some, would mean that if the 353rd were wiped out to a man before doing any damage to the ships at C110 they would have violated the T+60 rule. This is why we have CMs to look into the facts and interpret what happened since there are many variables that happen in game play. Such as a squad getting wiped out or a squad missing with all their bombs or torps (especially if somebody is trying to torp). Things are not exactly black and white and the CM must step in and determine what happened based on the information we have from the CM logs and make a ruling. The CMs are very consistent into digging into the logs and doing their best to interpret results.

The Axis attack group was engaged by Allied fighters at 22:50:38 (T+47.29). The above time marks show when the first Allied fighter took damage (Damned SE was assigned to cap C110 for the allies), the first Axis bomber took damage, and the first Axis escort took damage. So my interpretation is this:

1) The Axis battle plan showed that the attack force to hit C110 did load out with ordinance and were instructed with orders to hit C110 in the T+60 limitation.
2) The Axis attack force (353rd and The Blind Bats) were engaged at T+47.29 with allied fighters piercing the escort screen and engaging the bombers
3) Additional damage longs indicate to me that we had a running fight that lasted all the way through the Axis bomb run on C110 (see time of first damage, the loss of RoadKill, and first kill scored by escorts).
4) First bomb damage to a ship by the JU88s was at T+61. Bombers were under aerial attack for 13 minutes and 31 seconds before their first drop. 


All of this I, as the CM interpret as a valid axis attack on C110 according to the T+60 rule, the attack force carrying ordinance (the CM logs show they loaded out with bombs), and attacking with a credible force rule.

I don't usually go through and publish all my findings but this is the process I go through (when I don't post typos or mistakes in math) to determine if an attack was valid or not when somebody brings up the question if a target was hit. First I find I look at the orders published to make sure the CiC wasn't doing anything funny (he wasn't). Then I try to piece together what happened (attack force destroyed enroute or not or something else) and then I dig into the death and object damage logs and then I dig in the damage logs.

The attack was valid. Bombers were attacked 13 min 31 seconds before drop. They then hit with a bomb at T+61 (logs don't record misses by the way). So it is a valid attack and exceptions were not made to the rule. The damage to the ship was done by a bomb not bullets.

Now based on the above information, if the allied defenders HAD killed all the attacking JU88s or if the JU88s missed with their ordinance (an yes I can via the CM logs tell what they loaded out with so I can confirm if it was with bombs or torps) I would still interpret this as a valid attack based on the information above and with more digging would figure out if they were either all killed or maybe mostly killed and then missed with their ordinance. This is what I mean about being flexible with the rules and interpreting since I have to figure out what happened from time markers since we can't put a CM with gods eye view over each target to report back to me what happened and when.

P.S. In regards to the Blind Bats, the escorts, first instance of damage. That is the first time their bullets hit an allied plane. The CM logs do not show when the start firing so I am assuming they were in there doing their best to drive off the attackers and mixing things up before that time mark.

[ghostdancer]

CiCs do have a rock solid basis as they prepare their orders.

1) Arm an attack force with bombs, rockets, or torps (special rules may modify which of these can be or can not be used)
2) Come up with a plan and route for that attack force to hit the target by T+60
3) Pray that the allies do not intercept and kill your force or destroy it cohesion or scatter it or etc., etc.
4) Pray that if your attack force does get through the allied defense that they actually hit with bombs or torps or rockets

As you see the first two points are under the CiC control. The other 2 points depends on how the frame plays out and individual squad and pilot actions when they do run into the enemy.

[ghostdancer]

The Amphibious assault and A56/A57 situations do not apply to other CMs. One was an inclusion of a new element by me (no other CM is obligated to try an Amphibious assault in any shape or form) and the other was do to a mistake made by me. So these are unique situations stemming from myself and can not be projected on other CMs.

[Mystic2]

Which Axis CV are you referring to?  I had C106 in the designated sectors. 

[AKDogg]

I was taught not to make a rule that u can't or won't enforce properly.  What I see happening here is to many rules that are beginning to have no meaning or that can be interpreted differently from 1 CM to another.  I personally think that there should be consistancy between all CM's on how they interpret the rules.  This is where the CM trainers come into play.  We need consistancy.

Same with scoring.  What is wrong with having a baseline or the same scoring system for each FSO?  Having 4+ different scoring systems to me is assinine and difficult sometimes for the players/squads to follow.

[DMBEAR]

I don't care about the score anymore.   Especially if you count an attack on an undefended base.  It was fun to look at to get a picture of what happened, but it could not be more meaningless now. 

 

[ghostdancer]

The rules are in place and FSO CMs have lattitude. You can't enforce a strict consistent rule that is absolute in battlefield situations.

As I posted .. the FSO CM finds out

1) If a credible force was tasked to hit a target
2) If they carried the proper ordinance
3) If the battle plan would enable them to hit the target by T+60.

After that things become less absolute and where interpretation comes in because player actions come into play. As stated an attack force may be attacked and stopped before target. They may make it target but completely miss with their ordinance.

This is where the FSO CMs must do research to determine what happened. In this case roughly 13 minutes before T+60 a credible attack force which was tasked to the target was intercepted by the defenders and a running battle developed. The attackers then hit their target at T+61 with bombs while under attack.

In this case I count that as a credible attack. Remember you can attack or plan attack and not be successful. The rules does not say they have to be conduct a successful attack by T+60.

If the attack force had not been engaged at all by the defenders I would not count at it as attacking the target by T+60.

If the attack force was slaughtered to say just 1 JU88 which then hit the target at T+75 I would count that as an attack under T+60 rule.

If the attack force escort engaged the enemy and the bombers fell back (took no damage at all) and then hit the target at T+70 I would not count that as an attack by T+60.

What you are not taking into account is the actions and results of combat in the air. Unfortunately we can't come up with set of exact guidelines and rules to cover every possibly contigency. The admin CM inspects things on a case basis to determine what happened from the raw data and makes a ruling on the conditions that developed and affected things.

The CiCs and squads know they have to do the following:

1) Come up with a battle plan that has the ability to put their planes carrying ordinance over the target by T+60 and to release ordinance at target. Obviously it is much better to actually plan to try to give yourself a cushion by planning to hit by T+50 or T+55.
2) A credible force with ordinance must be tasked to accomplish this.

From the CiC perspective their is no grey area here. From the squad perspective there is no grey area here.

The only grey area is what actually happens in battle and determining why it happened and the motives of those flying. As said what would not be acceptable to me would be if the escorts engaged the defenders and then the bombers basically fell back and loitered for another 15 minutes past T+60 or longer waiting for the defenders to be wiped out, waste all their ammo, or need to land and refuel.

[ghostdancer]

First off I have not made a decision on the what to do about A56/A57 and the GV battle. The Axis CiC and Allied CiC have wayed in with their opinions. I am considering that.

However, since both situations were caused by mistakes made by myself as the admin my take is it only fair not to count either event. In the case of the GV event besides the setup being flawed there was also the mistake of the GVs spawning way to close to the shore. This was an oversight of mine. On the A56/A57 situation again my fault. So only thing to do is for me to apologize to those involve and simple not count the points.