What's a "rope, fake rope?".

[Anaxogoras]

Ah thanks Anaxogoras. Perhaps it is more of a matter of learning how to have the 38 as a second skin; having a better feel for its handling qualities because I still feel like I lose control every now and then at really slow speeds.

I don't fly the 38 often, but I also lose control of it at very low speeds now and then.

[CAP1]

I don't fly the 38 often, but I also lose control of it at very low speeds now and then.

to me, she's a handfull at really low speeds, but i've found that with careful flap application, and throttle management, she will handle surprisingly well there too.,

[SgtPappy]

I can confidently say one thing, though.

As itchy as the 38 is at low speeds, it doesn't feel anywhere near as bad as the Spitfires or Corsairs. Something I still have to learn to use to my advantage.

Another weird thing is, flying at such slow speeds, it should make perfect sense to use the P-38's vertical prowess because few fighters will stay with the 38 at low speeds, let alone in the vertical. Though, I still find myself stalling and out of moves.

Any good low speed/vertical maneuvers, gentlemen?

[CAP1]

I can confidently say one thing, though.

As itchy as the 38 is at low speeds, it doesn't feel anywhere near as bad as the Spitfires or Corsairs. Something I still have to learn to use to my advantage.

Another weird thing is, flying at such slow speeds, it should make perfect sense to use the P-38's vertical prowess because few fighters will stay with the 38 at low speeds, let alone in the vertical. Though, I still find myself stalling and out of moves.

Any good low speed/vertical maneuvers, gentlemen?

my favorite is the stall/spin/pirouette into the forrest that is generally only a few hundred feet below. 

[Ack-Ack]

The way to beat the Spitfires in the P-38 is to get the fight as slow as possible.  You want to make the fight a contest over who can best minimize their forward velocity, because that is one way in which the P-38s are clearly superior to the Spitfires.

Actually, the way to beat a Spitfire in a P-38 is not to get into a turning engagement at medium speeds with a Spitfire.  Either keep the fight fast, in the vertical or if there is no other option, slow to stall speeds.  YMMV.

As for the original questions, what is a "rope" and a "fake rope"?  Easy to answer.  A rope (or rope-a-dope, or as I like to call it, rope-a-dweeb) is basically getting the opponent to follow you up in a zoom climb with the intention of getting the opponent to stall out before you, at which time you just loop over and put some rounds into the belly of the stalled out opponent.  It's a maneuver that should only be done if you have a superior energy state over the other guy or if your plane is superior in a zoom climb.  A fake rope is when the opponent that you're trying to get to follow you up pretends that he's about to stall out below you.  Basically, the opponent in a fake rope is hiding his energy state to make you believe he has less than you do when in reality he has the same or more than you do and intends to nail you as you loop over to complete your 'rope'.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

As itchy as the 38 is at low speeds, it doesn't feel anywhere near as bad as the Spitfires or Corsairs. Something I still have to learn to use to my advantage.

The P-38 shouldn't feel 'itchy' at low speeds, its zero torque and low stall speed make the Lightning one of the most stable planes in the game at low to stall speeds.  If you find it hard to control the P-38 at low to stall speeds, try being smoother on the controls instead of ham fisted and most importantly, listen to your stall buzzer.  The stall buzzer will let you know how far you can push it at low/stall speeds.


ack-ack

[boomerlu]

I once failed a rope in a 38, had my tail shot off by a Niki, but STILL had enough stability in the stall to nose around and saw off the Niki's wing.

I've also seen a video where the 38 pilot enters a flat spin but still has enough control to take a snapshot on a corsair.

All hail no torque...

[onan]

Ack-Ack

Thanks for the description of "fake rope"
makes sense now.  Gonna use now so watch it!

<S>

[Agent360]

-disclaimer --- I am not a trainer. DO NOT FOLLOW MY ADVICE unless you fully understand it. Consider this advanced information. I do not recommend begginers trying this.


I used the term "fake rope" in another rescent thread here.
see this thread http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272282.0.html

The closest definition in this thread came from Bruv119
"A fake rope i would say is more disguising the amount of energy you really have by spiral climbing or just not climbing straight up vertical.  Basically encouraging the enemy con to come up and have a go when you then pull up even higher and then roll in for the kill."

This definition is nearly correct except for this part "you then pull up even higher and then roll in for the kill". THis I do not do in the fake rope

I will try to clarify what "I" call a "fake rope" and why I do it.

The basis behind a lot of the moves I do is simple...have no form...that is to say remain mysterious. If I plainly say to you.."I am going to take you up then drag out all your energy then catch you falling out of the sky and shoot you"..you would be thinking...I think I will not let that happen and just dive away or otherwise escape causing me to chase you around and giving you time to set me up or for other friendlys to kill me. Instead, what if I say that to you with no intention of doing any of it. I then know what YOU will do but you have no idea what I am going to do.

A fake rope is simple deception. The act of appearing to do one thing but doing something totally different.

A classic rope is very easy to spot (I may as well yell out the back of my plane...hey im going to rope you). A zeek for example is not going to try and follow a 4hog or spit16 or a 109k4 up into a rope that is obvious... A situation where the defender is simply going to go up and up ...doulbe or even triple immels. No..the bandit breaks off, dives and meets you head on when you come down. THis can continue over and over. Even if you get on top of the bandit he can just break turn out of guns. Its a stale mate. The more time you spend doing this the more time his buddies have to find and kill you.

If you blow the rope by not getting the angle, missing the shot, taking too long reversing at the top or worse don't have quite enough energy to pull it off, you will end up flying past the bogey nose down. The bogey can now follow you into your dive. At this point he is BEHIND you. THis is bad regardless of the speed or seperation. Even worse if you are in similar planes.

Think of a fake rope as a lead turn in reverse. I am lead turning the bandit from my six. Perhaps a more accurate description would be causing an overshoot because thats what a fake rope really is. In the beggining the bandit is behind me but at the end I am behind the bandit with him having no chance of escape.

I normally get speed (350+) and then make a turn giving the bandit an angle that allows him to close to my six..as if I were going to drag them up for a classic rope. I then take them up verticle as they expect...wagging my tail like I am trying to see their stall...and rolling my plane like I AM GOING TO STALL ( I dont really have to even see him because I know where he is). I then early turn...before THE BANDIT is out of energy into a simple flat turn pointing my down wing at the bandit. The WHOLE POINT is to keep the bandit nose up and salivating for guns on my drop. Now the bandit is thinking I could go up more and chase or I could float here and wait for the drop. Either way he is commiting to stay ON MY SIX.

At this point I am above the bandit with my down wing pointed at him and pulling low g flat turn. It is only a matter of rolling over the correct amount then cutting the corner to his plane using either a slicing rudder skid or a low yoyo.

Imagine a simple flat scissor turn where the defender in front makes a sharper turn while the attacker goes more strait. The defender will now have guns on the attacker as the attacker passes in front of the defenders guns. Now take this situation and rotate it to the verticle so that all the same moves are done going up. The flat turn becomes the sharper turn with the bandit taking the longer turn below.

While I am above pulling the low g flat turn so is the bandit. He is trapped now. He doesn't have nose up for guns because he is now pulling the same flat turn below me. He can't pull up because if he does I can just immel or wing over and pop him stalled. He can't dive away because I am already turned ready to pounce and will close in seconds if he dives. His only option is to pull a scissor reveral if I drop my nose too fast.

If I had just pulled a classic rope to start, the bandit would just dive away while im reversing at the top. Now the bandit is 2k away...thats no good.

Its better to drag them up into a fake rope then suddenly go into a flat turn dragging them around into a situation they can't escape from. If I blow it I can easily get away by diving out myself or shallow extending 90 deg the opposite direction. I have all the options. The bandit has one...go down.

The fake rope is used to gain a superior angles advantage at close range giving you a no miss shot...much the same if you did a classic rope. The difference is in the classic rope you shoot a stalled out bandit as you come DOWN.

In the fake rope you typically shoot the bandit off the high side either while he is turning away or while he tries to barrel roll/vert reverse.

Agent360

[Steve]

In the fake rope you typically shoot the bandit off the high side either while he is turning away or while he tries to barrel roll/vert reverse.

Agent360

Yup, pretty much. I do not agree with the other descriptions but the term "fake rope"  is pretty vague so I can understand why there would be varying ideas. As a pwny stick who frequently attacks the horde, I fight mostly in the vert and rope, fake rope/slash is my forte. Some would be lords of the game look down their noses at me for this fighting style but the fact is, it's about the only effective way to fight the hordes outside of flying a jet. Anyone can rope, but to do it effectively and disguise it enough to regularly be successful take nuance and skill.

A few people have typed that you pull a plane up until he is foundering then you drop on him and blast him. A truly well timed rope will have you reversing back down while he is in a nose up attitude, but without the E to pull his nose up more for a gun solution,  so that there is no way he can evade.  Bang, canopy shot with precious little ammo used. Another reason this is particularly useful against the horde is:  you waste little time on BFM and ACM which while pretty, burn precious E and seconds, allowing the enemy to close on you.

If someone is complaining about you roping, you probably are either frustrating them or killing them.    

[Wreked]

The top end of the "rope-a-dope" was the classic "hammerhead" maneuver - took me a while to master it but if done correctly can put you in an ideal gun solution : note the smoke trail as he flips over - how aligned he is with it - great!!

http://www.fightercombat.com/pages/vid_hammerhead.html

cheers eh!

[CAP1]

the biggest problem i have when i'm the one roping you.......i can see when you're about to stall.......but i have the hardest time managing to capitalize on your mistake.

[Wreked]

IMHO "torque" is your friend for this maneuver - at the top go "with" your torque - coupled with rudder it will help you on the flip. I'm not all that sure what this means in the P38 since I rarely drive them. I have heard of some who have cut an engine to assist the flip or rev it down(not sure if that is an option in AH). Like all things it's a matter of trial and error till ya get it right (even after 20+ years I'm still a terrible shot )

cheers eh!

[Steve]

The top end of the "rope-a-dope" was the classic "hammerhead" maneuver -

It's a pretty move for sure but hard to pull off in the MA.  The actual flyng part of a good rope, which the two short fims will show, is pretty easy.  The challenge is in angle and throttle management.  You want to keep the distance such that your quarry stays interested.  Two short films:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/eujdwmjizmw/spiral rope_1630.ahf

http://www.mediafire.com/file/4tmmxgkteoj/rope 2.ahf

[Agent360]

My first response may have been too complicated.

The "fake rope" is a simple play to bring the bandit up on your six in the verticle. From their I fly the plane almost to the rope. But instead of actually executing a classic rope and going for guns on the down side catching the bandit hanging, I alter the arc of the wing over/top reversal by going flat or shallow flat climb to ALLOW the the bandits nose to remain in control....baiting him to keep his nose up and in lag pursuit. To the bandit it looks like I don't have enough energy to pull it off...so he waits for the drop...the point which he can turn nose down and follow me into the dive.

But I don't bring my plane to the point of being forced to wing over for a kill. I continue to KEEP energy while the bandit looses it. This then gives me energy or rather makes my energy greater than his because he lost it and I kept mine.The whole point is to prevent myself from getting nose down on a better turning plane. If you are in a fast plane you can simply take your rope shot and escape.

The "fake rope" is the bait for the trap. Take the bait and u get trapped. The "fake rope" is a way of baiting a better turning plane into a depleted energy positon giving me control to make repeated close in shots instead of blowing everything on one classic rope shot.

Some people may remember "Creton". He used this move but had no name for it. He taught it to me. I named it the "Fake rope". It's NOT a rope. BUt it looks like one from the bandits perspective. That's why I call it "fake".

IT's just a way of drawing a better turning plane into a nose up turning position so that I have enough time to get my plane nose down and into guns BEFORE he detects the trap and dives away.