Looking at buying a plane.

[trigger2]

Hey all!
I'm looking at buying a plane (probably in 2 or so years, friend of mine and I agreed to split the cost/ownership of the bird). Recently at the Oregon International Airshow, Twin Oaks airpark had a display there where they were selling Piper Super Cub (sport) kits. For the kit, with a delux VFR panel, 2 seater, it'd run us around $130,000. I'm looking for anyone with experiance in sport aircraft, and if anyone has experiance in the Super Cub, I'd love to hear it, good or bad.

Here's a pic of what the plane would look similar to.

Thanks!
~Trigger2

[Maverick]

The first consideration you need to do is contact as many aircraft insurers as you can and ask about insurance. The Cub is a great plane but it has conventional gear which makes most insurers just say no, especially with low or NO tail wheel time pilots. If you can't insure it you darn sure won't be doing much flying unless you have money by the tub full to burn.

Frankly there are plenty of used aircraft out there that are far more affordable than buying a new one like that. That includes other Cubs, Super Cubs and the Maules.

Another consideration if you are set on a rag wing is a hanger. Unless you like re covering the bird every few years due to sun exposure the hanger will be cheaper.

If you both are low time pilots get a trike gear bird and build some hours. Get a history with your insurer then you might find it easier to transition to a conventional geared bird.

[eagl]

2 things.

1.  Get your partnership agreement in writing and have a lawyer familiar with aviation contracts look at it.  You need to outline who is responsible for what, who makes decisions (what if you want an engine overhaul and he doesn't?), how costs are allocated, and what happens if one of you wants to sell the plane and the other one doesn't.
2.  Make SURE that the plane will meet both of your needs.

Here's the scenario - you guys buy a used plane, and it turns out that the engine starts fouling one plug.  You check into it and determine that the engine could use an overhaul but it's not absolutely required.  One of you guys wants to fix it, the other doesn't want to pay for half of an overhaul he doesn't think is necessary.  You guys end up selling the plane at a loss since the engine needs an overhaul.  Who gets stuck for the loss?

Or, you buy a 2-seat plane and one person gets married and has a kid (or comes up with another reason to need 3-4 seats) so he decides that the plane is unsuitable and a total waste of money.  He wants to sell, but the market is down so the plane will be sold at a loss.  Again, who takes the loss, since one partner still wants to keep the plane?

If I was going to get a "sensible" plane, I'd probably try to find a cessna 172 with a low-time engine and basic IFR panel.  That's about as sensible as it gets and they're relatively inexpensive to operate, all things considered.  And you can get as weird with accessories as you want, with speed kits, multiple engine options, extra gas or cargo, avionics, etc.  And the price range for used 172s is very wide depending on what you are getting.

Get it in writing first.

[Masherbrum]

2 things.

1.  Get your partnership agreement in writing and have a lawyer familiar with aviation contracts look at it.  You need to outline who is responsible for what, who makes decisions (what if you want an engine overhaul and he doesn't?), how costs are allocated, and what happens if one of you wants to sell the plane and the other one doesn't.
2.  Make SURE that the plane will meet both of your needs.

Here's the scenario - you guys buy a used plane, and it turns out that the engine starts fouling one plug.  You check into it and determine that the engine could use an overhaul but it's not absolutely required.  One of you guys wants to fix it, the other doesn't want to pay for half of an overhaul he doesn't think is necessary.  You guys end up selling the plane at a loss since the engine needs an overhaul.  Who gets stuck for the loss?

Or, you buy a 2-seat plane and one person gets married and has a kid (or comes up with another reason to need 3-4 seats) so he decides that the plane is unsuitable and a total waste of money.  He wants to sell, but the market is down so the plane will be sold at a loss.  Again, who takes the loss, since one partner still wants to keep the plane?

If I was going to get a "sensible" plane, I'd probably try to find a cessna 172 with a low-time engine and basic IFR panel.  That's about as sensible as it gets and they're relatively inexpensive to operate, all things considered.  And you can get as weird with accessories as you want, with speed kits, multiple engine options, extra gas or cargo, avionics, etc.  And the price range for used 172s is very wide depending on what you are getting.

Get it in writing first.

Excellent advice right here.   

[Wolfala]

Mission, Mission, Mission.

I've been an owner since 2006. A cub is great for dicking around low or landing on riverbanks if that is your thing - but as others indicated - a few things:

1.  MONEY. Are both you and your partner financially able to afford it?
2.  Depreciation:  Hate to break it - but $120,000 depreciates 20% in the first year. Find a used bird where it has a good MX history and someone already ate the depreciation.
3.  MISSION - what is your gameplan? Do you plan to be bumping around the mountains in and out of 2000 ft strips with no STOL or Turbo?
4.  Join an owners group - see what their typical threads are on MX, operations and headaches. Not everyone will post, but you'll notice things that are nuisances in type clubs (i.e. worn turbo brackets, corrosion areas, etc)
5.  A partnership is a marriage (yes, no toejam). Have an LLC or some type of seperate entity created where the aircraft will reside so your assets will not be at risk incase of an accident and lawsuit. This won't necessarly prevent you from being sued for some roadkill claim, but if you have your liability limits set high enough, it won't matter. Have a clear exit strategy from the partnership if your mission requirements diverge from your partners. *i.e. if A wants out, you sell at loss and divide the difference, or he buys you out at X - the prorata engine hour.
6.  Calculate the per hour reserve. Its not just gas and oil. I'll give you an idea of how mine looks on a per hour basis.

      Cirrus SR-20
Assumptions:      
-   -   
Fuel burn @ cruise      9.5
Fuel cost      $3.50
Oil burn @ cruise      0.08
Oil cost      $7.65
Filter cost      $20.00
Annual inspection      $3,000.00
Static sys./xpdr checks      $500.00
Oil change      $350.00
Engine life      2000
Engine OH cost      $37,000.00
Prop life      2400
Prop OH cost      $2,000.00
Registration, state      $400.00
Insurance      $1,660.00
Hangar/tiedown      $100.00
Preventive Maintenance      $4,000.00
      
Paint      $12,000.00
Interior      $8,000.00
      
Tire cost *3      $360.00
Tire life      800
      
Turbo life      1000000
Turbo OH cost      $0.01
Top-end life      2000
Top-end OH cost      $0.01
Sparkplug life      500
Sparkplug cost      $258.24
Vacuum pump life      100000
Vacuum pump cost      $0.00

   Direct =   $75.08   /hr.
   Indirect =   $8,176.67   /yr.
And, the total annual cost for flying is         $25,445   /yr based on 20 hours per month

And the DOC broken down as performance numbers for my aircraft:

      Cirrus SR-20
      (OperateLOP)
Engine HP, max.      200
Fuel, usable      52
Fuel consumption @ 75%      10
      0.39
Endurance 75% - no reserve      5.2
Speed @ 75%      140
Distance, max.      728.0
      
Cruise  Performance      
  Power, cruise      70%
  Speed, cruise      137
  Fuel consumption, cruise      9.3
  Endurance, cruise      5.6
  Distance, cruise      762.3
  Fuel economy      14.7
      
  Trip distance      1200
  Trip time      8.8
  Trip cost      $970.29
  Passengers + crew      4
  Aircraft operating cost      $110.63
      $0.81
  Trip cost/person      $242.57
      
Gross weight      3000
Basic empty wgt      2083
Useful load      940
Fuel, max.      52
Payload      628

      
Number of partners      1


---------

These are big numbers. If you aren't mentally prepared for big numbers don't do it.

[AAJagerX]

Not to mention the restrictions placed on the LSA catagory of aircraft.  A 172 or Piper Archer (or other) with basic IFR would definately be the way to go (as long as you both have no issues with the medical cert.).

[Halo]

Very decent of you owners to share the detailed information so easy for prospective owners to overlook.   

[CAP1]

2 things.

1.  Get your partnership agreement in writing and have a lawyer familiar with aviation contracts look at it.  You need to outline who is responsible for what, who makes decisions (what if you want an engine overhaul and he doesn't?), how costs are allocated, and what happens if one of you wants to sell the plane and the other one doesn't.
2.  Make SURE that the plane will meet both of your needs.

Here's the scenario - you guys buy a used plane, and it turns out that the engine starts fouling one plug.  You check into it and determine that the engine could use an overhaul but it's not absolutely required.  One of you guys wants to fix it, the other doesn't want to pay for half of an overhaul he doesn't think is necessary.  You guys end up selling the plane at a loss since the engine needs an overhaul.  Who gets stuck for the loss?

Or, you buy a 2-seat plane and one person gets married and has a kid (or comes up with another reason to need 3-4 seats) so he decides that the plane is unsuitable and a total waste of money.  He wants to sell, but the market is down so the plane will be sold at a loss.  Again, who takes the loss, since one partner still wants to keep the plane?

If I was going to get a "sensible" plane, I'd probably try to find a cessna 172 with a low-time engine and basic IFR panel.  That's about as sensible as it gets and they're relatively inexpensive to operate, all things considered.  And you can get as weird with accessories as you want, with speed kits, multiple engine options, extra gas or cargo, avionics, etc.  And the price range for used 172s is very wide depending on what you are getting.

Get it in writing first.

best reply so far.


 

[Chalenge]

(engage Jedi mind trick)

You want to learn gliders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliding

Check out Nimbus 4-DLM for instance:

http://www.schempp-hirth.com/index.php?id=nimbus-4dm0&L=1

 or DG 1000S (The Challenger) or the self-launching DG 1001M. 

http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/dg1000-herausforderer-e.html

(/Jedi mind trick)

There is no substitute for wingspan. 

[eagl]

I know a couple of guys who have motorgliders...  An instructor here who flew F-15Cs loves to fly his Dad's motorglider.

Me, I want a bit more maneuverability so if I was going to get a plane, I'd probably end up with an RV kitplane.  There is even a docile 4-seat RV for those who want a good aluminum airplane and don't plan on turning it upside down.

[Chalenge]

Maneuverability? Ha! All I need is my DG a lot of sun a little wind and I will stay airborne sailing all day... True Soaring aircraft are fully aerobatic and the more complex they are the more understanding of flight you may achieve. 

[trigger2]

Thanks for all of your replies, and it has DEFFINITLY made me think about a bit more. Still love the bird. It'd just be a plane used for fun, going out just to fly around, and every now and then get from point a to point b (maybe a fly in airshow here and there. ).

Again, a BIG thanks to everyone that shared their opinions!

~Trigger2

[Barrett]

While a partnership may seem a good way to go - all the reasons previously stated by others do apply. If it were me, I'd go it alone - plenty of used a/c out there for much less than 100K.

I had an rudder pedal Ercoupe 415cd for a few years - cost me less than 5k. Enjoyed it very much and put about 500 hrs. on before I sold it. But, I wasnt looking for an IFR a/c - just something to get me in the air - it did that and had a ball with it.  

Over time I met some wonderful people - I won't name names cause you probably wouldn't believe me anyway - some true aviation pioneers. I was based at 1B2. Wound up managing that field for 4 years and went on to be manager of KMVY. Retired in 1999 with a wealth of good times and memories.

Enjoy the experience and keep the shiny side up - best wishes to you  

[saggs]

I think the best "bang for the buck" is to build a 2 seater Van's RV- 6,7,8

Plus since it is "experimental" you can do all your own maintenance and inspections, saving big $ not having to hire an A&P

[flight17]

if you could give up the super part of the cub, you might like this: http://www.legend.aero/content.asp

these are brand new cubs. last time i saw a price on them there were in the 50-70K price range.

this is what i would like to have if i wanted a sport aircraft.