Author Topic: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO  (Read 14312 times)

Offline Guppy35

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2011, 11:44:46 AM »
That doesn't really apply as "combat" though, does it? It's a weak excuse to use exotic markings -- which were so marked because this plane was NOT used in regular combat.


So, it all goes back to "OMG! It's black! Must have in-game, don't care about the backstory!"


I'm all for interesting skins but frankly there are plenty of "legit" ones to choose from with lots of variety without having to resort to this kind of tactic.

But this one has a back story, and a tragic one at that.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Krusty

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2011, 11:49:00 AM »
Considering your tone in this thread (and several others) nothing that I now posted is an insult but a fact. I think the faith of this particular aircraft is rather telling that these men put their lives on the line. Friendly fire is a very real danger in a war. I certainly couldn't say it to their faces that they weren't flying combat missions. The FiAF Storch which I posted a thread about was used as a liason aircraft by FiAF HQ, transporting, mail, people, orders, documents and so on. Want to make a bet weather or not it will make it to the game? It served an airforce engaged in an air war like other aircraft of the said airforce.

False argument. Not fact. Biased opinion slandering me in a thread to satisfy your own hate or perhaps attempt to make others join in.

Your other comments don't apply either. I don't disagree these men SERVED.... but that isn't really combat. Nor is it combat when Japanese pilot trainees were shot down on training flights. Nor is it combat when Kurt Tank claimed to be chased by P-51s in his Ta152 prototype. There is a major difference between COMBAT and "hostile situtations"...

People in Iraq and Afghanistan have died horrible deaths while not in combat. These are not combat troops by their own definition, but supply troops, support units, convoys, transports, etc.

I'm not denying they SERVED, but there is a distinct difference between serving and fighting in a combat unit. You can die from any number of things, none pleasant. That doesn't make this a bomber unit, nor does it make them a combat squadron, nor does it make their missions combat. They were not taking the fight to the enemy. They were not searching for anything to shoot or bomb or recon or ANYTHING. They were a propoganda and news unit, devised ONLY for that purpose to the exclusion of all other duties.

They didn't carry bombs, they didn't drop them on war targets, they didn't shoot at airplanes or objects on the ground.


You really can't defend it other than the "OMG! it's black!" reaction.

Combat is the intent to take the fight to the enemy and intend to destroy them. Without that intent, it's not really combat.


GUPPY: All such losses are tragic. There are many many many (too many to even count) thoughout that war and many others. It doesn't make it any less tragic. It doesn't mean it was combat, though. Shall we make a skin for every pilot that died because he ground looped his plane on landing after an uneventful career? We'd have millions of skins.

Offline Wmaker

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2011, 12:05:34 PM »
Combat is the intent to take the fight to the enemy and intend to destroy them. Without that intent, it's not really combat.

Combat involves so much more than this.

No point in discussing with you. Like I said, let's see if that FiAF Storch will get in. So many Storches served in various missions where their exact roles and missions history might be next to impossible to track and I'm sure they will be accepted regardless just like they should too. You can have whatever opnion you like, but gladly, you aren't really "calling the shots" in any shape or form. All you are is a slight annoyance as it is HTC which says what skin submissions get accepted and which don't. I just hope more and more skinners will just totally ignore you and submit and let HTC sort them out.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2011, 12:16:19 PM »
Combat involves so much more than this.

No point in discussing with you. Like I said, let's see if that FiAF Storch will get in. So many Storches served in various missions where their exact roles and missions history might be next to impossible to track and I'm sure they will be accepted regardless just like they should too. You can have whatever opnion you like, but gladly, you aren't really "calling the shots" in any shape or form. All you are is a slight annoyance as it is HTC which says what skin submissions get accepted and which don't. I just hope more and more skinners will just totally ignore you and submit and let HTC sort them out.

Oh, but there is point in discussing it. The storch cannot be used as a parallel for B-17 skins. The storch by nature was a noncombat plane, armed with a gun only for self defense. Its nature was a communications plane or a personal transport in some cases. It performed many duties, but it was not a combat plane. Nor was it a B-17 being flown with no bombs and no intent to drop bombs.

So you cannot be taken seriously if you pretend the 2 situations are similar.

I hope YOU find a way to leave these forums in peace and never return, but frankly I don't think that will happen.

As you have said, it is HTC who calls the shots. I'm not making anything up here. I'm citing HTC's past rulings on the matter and you conveniently ignore them simply to perpetuate an opposing stance to mine. I'm not calling the shots nor am I being antagonistic like you are. I'm saying (quite factually) that this skin doesn't belong on this plane in this game because of those reasons already laid out.

We've seen from past experience HTC doesn't have a perfect fact-checking record on all skin submissions. We've seen skins submitted intentionally with the skinner knowing it was a noncombat skin and hoping HTC didn't know better. We've seen that just spamming HTC with invalid skins only proves to get invalid skins in the game which take years and many dozens of fans complaining to get them removed. We've seen that HTC does read this forum and despite your bluster does use peer review to help them in their research for reviewing skin submissions.

Your intention is simply to disrupt the entire process, by your own admission (spamming all skins regardless of legitimacy and hope they all get accepted).

Offline Wmaker

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2011, 12:50:34 PM »
Your intention is simply to disrupt the entire process, by your own admission (spamming all skins regardless of legitimacy and hope they all get accepted).

Heh, based on what?


----------------------------
In addition to the upcoming Storch skins, there's plenty of PR-Mossie16 skins and in the game and I'm glad that they are there. They used cameras instead of bombs but I'm glad that the skins are there to remind us of that part of the war aswell. Read our replies and see who's blowing things out of proportion with constant hypebole and assumptions about my motives. As said, I'm glad that it's HTC which decides what goes into the game and what doesn't all you are is a slight annoyance. :)

I'll leave it at that.
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Offline beau32

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2011, 07:07:28 PM »

People in Iraq and Afghanistan have died horrible deaths while not in combat. These are not combat troops by their own definition, but supply troops, support units, convoys, transports, etc.

I'm not denying they SERVED, but there is a distinct difference between serving and fighting in a combat unit. You can die from any number of things, none pleasant. That doesn't make this a bomber unit, nor does it make them a combat squadron, nor does it make their missions combat. They were not taking the fight to the enemy. They were not searching for anything to shoot or bomb or recon or ANYTHING. They were a propoganda and news unit, devised ONLY for that purpose to the exclusion of all other duties.



I know a few people who served in those comvoys and support units, and I bet if you tell them they were not in combat, they would punch you in your face. They are under constant threat to being attack.

The Tondalayo was flying combat missions, no doubt about it. Was it attacking with bombs, no. But it was a fully armed bomber, flying into constant threat of being shot down.

Perfect example is the Spit 14 skin with the camera we have in game. That plane was flying and taking photos of targets, but she was fully armed for defence. Same as the Tondalayo.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 07:48:27 PM by beau32 »
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Offline lyric1

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2011, 07:29:51 PM »
Had of known one colour photograph was going to stir this mess up I would not have bothered. :(

Offline EskimoJoe

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2011, 08:31:47 PM »
Pamplette missions weren't combat.

Right. Sending for h=mvees aro=nd Iraq with sole intent of swaying the enemy and trying to
keep the pop=lation on o=r side isn't combat at all. J=st pamplette missions, right?

Right.
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Offline Rino

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2011, 10:43:30 AM »
Had of known one colour photograph was going to stir this mess up I would not have bothered. :(

     Don't sweat it Lyric..I liked your post  :aok  As for Krusty...well what can you say?  He obviously hasn't changed much
in the past couple years  :D
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2011, 11:13:09 AM »
Had of known one colour photograph was going to stir this mess up I would not have bothered. :(

Glad you posted it.  It was a bird I hadn't seen before with a unique history.  Not sure why Krusty has decided to make this one a 'cause'.  I would like to see it get done by someone who can do that skin well.  I'd also like to see a couple of the all black B24s that flew both in the PTO and ETO.

An all gray MTO B17 Pathfinder and all gray B24 Pathfinder skin would be nice too
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Megalodon

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2011, 11:16:33 AM »
How many of the leaflet droppers were shot down by enemy fire?

Any?,
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline Guppy35

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2011, 11:23:55 AM »
How many of the leaflet droppers were shot down by enemy fire?

Any?,

Three from that particular unit
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Megalodon

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2011, 11:38:57 AM »
Three from that particular unit

 ....well dose that not sum it up.

So Krusty? Would one of the planes shot by enemy fire be acceptable to you?

If so you will have to except the rest of the unit.

 :cheers:
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 11:43:34 AM by Megalodon »
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline Delirium

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2011, 12:59:04 PM »
So Krusty? Would one of the planes shot by enemy fire be acceptable to you?

Krusty can be rather stubborn, I don't think showing him a Luftwaffe night-fighter and a one of the leaflet dropping birds side by side at an excavation site would convince him the leaflet droppers saw combat. Heck, you could have the pilots of those planes locked in a struggle to the death with their bare hands at the same excavation site and it still wouldn't be enough.

kom·bat
   [v. kuhm-bat, kom-bat, kuhm-; n. kom-bat, kuhm-] Show IPA verb, -bat·ed, -bat·ing or ( especially British ) -bat·ted, -bat·ting, noun
verb (used with object)
1. to fight or contend against; oppose vigorously: to combat crime.

verb (used without object)
2. to battle; contend: to combat with disease.
noun
3. Military . active, armed fighting with enemy forces.
4. a fight, struggle, or controversy, as between two persons, teams, or ideas.


To be blunt, the skin rotation is entirely up to HTC, the skinning team, and (to a VERY small extent) the AH community. Unless the community can completely disprove the historical basis the skin is modeled after, it moves on to the bowels of HTC where Skuzzy and the skinning team sacrifice goats and dismember monkeys in an attempt to get skins into the game*.

If it was up to me, I wouldn't allow any night based skins since no night takes place in the MA, but leave them available for scenario type events. I'm glad I'm not in charge, seems like a lot of effort just to have people complain regardless of how hard you work.

*Note: Uncle Cy's Angel is not included in his process and has been eliminated from ever seeing the virtual light of Aces High.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 01:05:46 PM by Delirium »
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Offline Megalodon

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Re: B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2011, 01:48:06 PM »
BEYOND ALLIED LINES, SOMEWHERE OVER EASTERN GERMANY
By Romney Wheeler (AP

"April 15 - I am flying with the Word of Doom for Nazi Germany!
Ten minutes ago we crossed the West Front battle line beyond the River Salle. We have dropped bombs on our first target and are boring deeper into Hitler’s last stronghold toward a second. To the north lay by-passed Leipzig. Beyond us lies the devastation            that was Dreeden - and beyond that a Russian cyclone gathering force along the Oder and the Neisse.
Somewhere beneath us the spearheads of General Hodges are driving deeper into Germany’s vitals. We know it because four miles below us all Germany is burning.
This is total war, as Germany never imagined it! We literally are carrying the Word of Doom to Germany, for packed in the belly of this jet-black Liberator are a dozen bombs - loaded not with high explosives, but with leaflets telling Hitler’s Wehrmacht and Hitler’s civilians that this is the end….and leaflets calling for surrender.
Lieut. Bruce Edgerton, pilot, of Washington, D.C., lifts Midnight Mistress a bit higher as we swerve toward our next target. It is shortly after midnight, and moonless, but the stars are bright and there is only a light ground haze. We can see fires everywhere - most of them large ones, indicating destruction of entire towns.
“Three minutes to target” says the voice of our navigator, Lieut. John A. Alexander, of East Liverpool, Ohio.
Roger-dodger,” replies our pilot.
This big plane of the Eighth Air Force, 406th Squadron is quiet except for the roar of its four engines as we bear down on our target. The destruction going on below us seems unreal. Can this be Hitler’s inner fortress? Our maps and navigation tell us we are more that 300 miles inside Germany; scarcely 25 miles from the frontier of Czechoslovakia - and only 75 miles from the Russian lines.
Now we are bearing to the north, and off our left wing we can see flashes of heavy guns. Somewhere down there Hodges men are hitting Jerry where it hurts.
“One minute to target,” says the navigator, and our bombardier, Lieut. Carlo Zuniga of Mira Loma, Calif., prepares to hit another one on the nose.
“If you got any flak,” cautions our navigator, “turn left or you’ll be right over Dresden.”
“Rodger-dodger,” is the reply.
Our co-pilot explains bout flak. “In the daytime you can see bursts of brown smoke, but at night it is just a flash - and hard to judge distance,” says Lieut. A.H. Franke, of Spokane, Wash. “Sometimes it looks like stars.”
“Yep,” observes Staff Sgt. Emmerson Miller of Chrisney, Ind., tail-gunner, on the inter-com. “Stars that go out are flak.”
“Target” says the navigator, quietly.
“Bombs away,” answers Zuniga.
“One - two - three - four,” counts Tech. Sgt. James K. Echols of Sardusky, Ohio, our radioman, as he checks the bombs dropping into the darkness.
We set a new course farther west. Now there are fewer fires and the gun-flashes are diminishing. We are beyond even the deepest spearheads.
This target is important.
Our waist gunners attend to the cargo - Staff Sgt. Larue Shipley of Caldwell, Idaho; and Staff Sgt. Charles W. Strain of Crete, Neb. A moment after “target” they report: “Cargo over”.
We wheel sharply and take a compass heading for home. Some German field flak installations pick us up, but we are flying too high and too fast.
“Let’s get the Hell out of here,” says our pilot, stepping up the engine revolutions.
We are south of Leipzig again, and again the ground haze reddens with fires raging more than four miles below us. One massive conflagration obviously is an oil fire.
“Something down there is burning like Hell,” says Staff Sgt. George W. Knott, of Chester, Penn, our ball gunner. “Look at those flames roll!”
We hold our altitude and roar westward toward England. We swing wide to avoid the Ruhr pocket, but we can see continuous flashes which tell us of massive artillery pounding to this doomed island of resistance. Inside the pocket there is an angry flare of many fires - fires consuming Nazi towns and villages.
Further west we see heavy artillery bombardment in Holland - the battle line where Montgomery’s troops are pressing forward. Then we are over the North Sea.
Tech. Sgt. Ralph W. Wise of Nabb, Ind., our engineer, checks our fuel. We have been in the air nearly eight hours most of that time on oxygen, and the weather at our home field is closing in. By the time we reach the airdrome, an original 800-foot ceiling has disappeared. Even at 300 feet we cannot break out. Finally we head for an RAF field 80 miles away, where they think they can take us in.
It is almost dawn when Midnight Mistress drops down on the runway - nine hours in the air from take-off at dusk when we headed for Germany. "

Sure sounds like combat...

http://www.bomberlegends.com/pdf/BL_Mag_v1-3-SecretSquad.pdf

Technically.... they were leaflet canister "bombs" that blew open.
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520