FSO: Oct. - The Adlerangriff, Phase II of the Battle of Britain

[68Wooley]

I will see how the JU88 performs and decide on whether to mandate 100% fuel load or allow them to have a 75% load.

Might be better to mandate 25% fuel and force them to run at less than 100% throttle.

At 100% load the Hurricane definitely seems to be able to catch them.

In straight and level flight maybe. Just. However the 15-20 knot rate of closure leaves you little option other than to tail chase and makes you easy pray for tail gunners. If the escorting fighters get you even a little below the buffs, its game over.

[texastc316]

Might be better to mandate 25% fuel and force them to run at less than 100% throttle.

wouldnt that be hard to enforce?

[Anaxogoras]

wouldnt that be hard to enforce?

It's similar to having a rule against the strafer B-25C.

[ghostdancer]

No it is not similar. The CMs can tell load out by logs; We can see if a person loaded out with 75% fuel or not in the logs.

The CMs can not tell manifold and RPM from the logs. There is no way to catch or prove that anybody flew faster than a designated rate (i.e. if I tell them no faster than 75% throttle I have no way to verify if a pilot did that or not). Outside of everybody submitting film to me for review and then for me to do an analysis of that film.

So any idea about this FSO using a reduced throttle for the Ju 88s is a non starter.

[ghostdancer]

Way back in 2002 we ran a BoB FSO (at that time FSO was called Tour of Duty) and at that time the Ju88 was faster than the Hurricane I and Spitfire I. Many people still believe this. It is not the case as the HTC plane charts show. I have also done some quick testing that verify those charts and the Ju 88 speed on them is without bombs. With bombs the Ju 88 speed is significantly less.

You only realistically have three types of flight. Straight and level, diving (you above your target), and climbing (you below your target).

As stated before I am not commenting on the setup of Nov. 2008 scenario and what tactics were used by the participants in it. However, this is not a scenario but an FSO. There are different conditions that apply here.

1)   LW targets are known to the British before the frame.
2)   LW targets must be hit before T+60.
3)   RAF knows the LW launch fields.

Besides knowing the targets and a rough idea of time frame for strikes (say T+40ish to T+60), the RAF also has BAR radar that updates every 10 minutes, and if they deploy scouts pickets in addition to this should have a good idea of where the LW strike forces are if things work well for them.

The Hurricane does have the speed to catch the JU88s in level flight. As the altitude goes up the Hurricane starts to gain a speed advantage over the Ju 88. So in level flight speed advantage to the Hurricane. In a diving attack speed advantage again to the Hurricane. However, the Hurricane needs to make a shallow dive and not blow by their targets in a deep dive past them to an altitude far below the Ju 88s.

I did additional testing of the planes and the Hurricane does have a decent closure rate on the Ju 88.

So again not commenting on what rules, setup, and tactics were used in BoB Nov. 2008 scenario but the Hurricane can catch the Ju88 and does have a good closure rate on a bomb loaded Ju 88. All I will say publicly to the British, or potential British side is practice your bomber intercepts.


10,000 ft ALTITUDE
Hurricane Mk I
100% Fuel
10K alt (took 3.5 full military to get to that alt)
292 = MIL (note once got to 280 it was slow to get to 292 without WEP)
300 = WEP (it was slow getting from 292 to 300 with WEP)

Ju 88
100% Fuel
4 x 500 kg bombs
20 x 50 kg bombs
10K alt (took 13.5 full military to get to that alt)
253 = MIL


Hurricane has 39 mph advantage over the JU88 if using WEP to get up to 292 mph (closure rate of 3432 ft per minute or 1144 yards per minute).

For a Hurricane with no WEP and rebuilding speed lets say it gets up to 280. That is an advantage of 27 mph (closure rate of 2376 ft per minute or 792 yards per minute)


3,400 ft ALTITUDE
Hurricane Mk I
100% Fuel
265 = MIL (note once got to 252 it was slow to get to 265 without WEP)
273 = WEP

Ju 88
100% Fuel
4 x 500 kg bombs
20 x 50 kg bombs
10K alt (took 13.5 full military to get to that alt)
238 = MIL

Hurricane at WEP speed has an advantage of 35 mph over the JU88 (closure rate of 3090 ft per minute or 1026 yards per minute).

Hurricane has 27 mph advantage over the JU88 if using WEP to get up to 265 mph (closure rate of 2376 ft per minute or 792 yards per minute).

For a Hurricane with WEP and rebuilding speed lets say it gets up to 252. That is an advantage of 14 mph (closure rate of 1232 ft per minute or 410 yards per minute).

[ghostdancer]

In straight and level flight maybe. Just. However the 15-20 knot rate of closure leaves you little option other than to tail chase and makes you easy pray for tail gunners. If the escorting fighters get you even a little below the buffs, its game over.

At 10K alt I believe a closure rate of 1144 yards per minute gives you other options than just a static tail chase. The place to worry about a slow tail closure is at 3.4k alt with no wep. Or chasing the bombers after they have dropped and are heading home.

The key here is strategy and tactics and to kill bombers before they drop.

As for the comment on escort fighters. Yes, that is what a good escort is supposed to do. Break up an enemy attack and tie them down so that they can't effectively engage bombers. Again the key here is developing tactics that enable the defenders to neutralize the escorts and allowing some of their forces to attack the bombers. Most common and simple way of doing this is diving your defending force into two parts. One part is tasked with engaging the escorts and a second force is tasked with hitting the bombers after the first force engages the escorts.

So the points, while valid, is more about tactics than whether the Hurricane has the speed and closure rate to handle the Ju 88s.

[Anaxogoras]

No it is not similar.

Read more carefully.  He was asking about restricting fuel to 25%, which is a loadout, which you can see in the logs.

[ghostdancer]

Might be better to mandate 25% fuel and force them to run at less than 100% throttle.

Anaxogoras before you tell me to read more carefully you might want to do that yourself. He was talking about a 25% fuel load out AND forcing them to run less than 100% throttle.

As I previously answered, in the the CM logs I can verify load out both bomb load and fuel load out. The logs do not record throttle settings (manifold or RPM). So the idea of forcing Ju 88 pilots to run at a reduce throttle in my opinion is unenforceable and relies completely on the honor system. The only way to verify that is by film which not a workable solution.

So no his request is not similiar to having the B25C not load out with the strafer ordinance package. It would only be similar if there was a rule against loading out with a strafer package and then another saying B25Cs can only run at 80% (or some other percentage) throttle.

[Saxman]

GD,

I think he meant force the Ju-88s to operate at reduced throttle BY restricting their fuel loads. You'd be able to track their fuel load, while at the same time the Ju-88s would be forced to reduce their power levels to have enough gas to reach their targets and return.

[ghostdancer]

Saxman that is not what 68Wooley wrote and there has been discussion in the past at actually setting throttle limits when designs have come up. He wrote:

Might be better to mandate 25% fuel and force them to run at less than 100% throttle.

The better response or follow up to this would have been to say I think what 68Wooley meant was that by taking a 25% fuel load it cause pilots to run a reduce throttle if they wanted to make it to target and also to get home (basically what you did). Instead of telling me to just "read more carefully." That comment does not clarify or offer additional possible context.

[ghostdancer]

Also to state this once again this is not a scenario and there are quite significant differences.

The November 2008 BoB scenario had a 3 hr and 15 minute frame length (195 minutes). It also did not specify that targets had to be hit by a certain time. It also did not specify which targets were to be hit in which frame and I read there rules right and remember the discussions it set objectives that had to be accomplished by the end of frame 4. Meaning the RAF did have hard and firm knowledge of which targets were to be hit in which frame like we do in FSO.

FSO has a 2 hour time length and targets must be planned to be struck by T+60 with a credible force.

Lower fuel (25%) and the resulting lower throttle rates will not work within this time frame in my opinion. The only way they can possibly work by limiting the the LW altitude to 10K or less and force them to fly the most direct line to target. Even then until I do testing it might not be possible to get to the target in time.

I will have targets up to 6 sectors (150 miles) from a LW launch base.

At full military power the Ju 88 (fully loaded) takes roughly 13.5 minutes to get to 10K (while covering a distance roughly of 33.75 miles while doing this). Then at full military power of about 253 mph it would take the Ju 88 an additional 27.68 minutes to fly 116.25 miles to a target 6 sectors away, so a total of 41.17 minutes roughly. So this would leave them with about an 8.8 minute window to start their runs at T+50 or a 18.8 minute window by T+60.

Now that is at full military power and the most direct line to a target 6 sectors away. This leaves them a time cushion that they can use to either build more alt or take a non direct method to target. If they go to a lower alt they spend less time climbing but they are also not as fast. So depends on what you think is the better trade off there.

Again remember that RAF knows exactly what targets must be hit, the time frame they must be hit, and the possible LW launch bases.

[68Wooley]

Just to clarify, my intentions by suggesting forcing the JU88's to launch with 25% fuel was to create a situation where the bombers were unable to run flat out all the way in and out due to insufficient fuel. I thought that might be an interesting alternative to trying to enforce manifold / pitch settings which I know is a non-starter.

Where I said 'force them to run at less than 100%', I meant force them due to insufficient fuel rather than anything in the rules.

Sorry for the confusion.

[ghostdancer]

No problem Wooley and thank you for the clarification since over the years since I have been doing this there has been discussions among the designers about telling the Ju 88s they have to run at 75% throttle.

[Anaxogoras]

Just to clarify, my intentions by suggesting forcing the JU88's to launch with 25% fuel was to create a situation where the bombers were unable to run flat out all the way in and out due to insufficient fuel. I thought that might be an interesting alternative to trying to enforce manifold / pitch settings which I know is a non-starter.

Where I said 'force them to run at less than 100%', I meant force them due to insufficient fuel rather than anything in the rules.

Precisely.  That's what I read the first time.

[j500ss]

Gentlemen, forgive me here, but my logic on this subject would lead me to ask for LW this FSO. Then ask for the 88 all 3 frames, if the advantage is that big, why not fly and live, it just adds up the score. 

Again, I'm sorry for looking at it that way, but with the given available plane set, the CM's do their best IMO...


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