Question about a P-51 maneuver

[thorsim]

A silly objection. The only difference significant between a P-51A and a P-51B being tested at the same weight is the additional horsepower of the B.  More power in same airframe,  weighted to produce the same wingloading will produce better performance, not worse. You should know this, but then again you're the same fellow who spoke blithely of the ill effects of the P-38's "torque"...


According to the Hitech, torque effects are modeled fully and correctly in AHII. And if you don't think being at low-speed high AoA high power in AHII in a single-engine bird cannot produce a violent departure, you haven't flown enough.

no that was not my objection about the 38 ...

so you are saying that the test as done are not conclusive to your assumption? cuz that is what i said ...

+S+

t

[Yeager]

guppy and yeager what you fail to see in my point is that if the virtual consequences were more in line with TRW the reluctance in game would also mirror the situation in real life.

Ok, Im going to continue here: What is TRW and what sort of consequences and reluctance are you talking about?

[Ack-Ack]

Once again, if you have not noticed a decay in maneuverability at low airspeeds with all the flaps hanging out in AHII, then you have not flown the game.

It also appears that thorsim is automatically assuming that everyone that uses flaps just leave them out regardless of the consequences.  While that may be true of newer and inexperienced players, you will rarely see a veteran or more experienced player using flaps in such a way. 

Speaking only for myself, my flaps are only deployed when needed and as soon as I'm done, I raise them and never leave them hanging out.  You will never see my flying with full flaps left out, for instance if I need full flaps in a rolling scissors situation, I deploy them for when I need them and then immediately rectract them afterwards.  You'll find others that fly 'flap dependent' planes using flaps the same way.

ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

My favorite 'flaps' story.  As it was much the same as Cy Homer was talking about, it seems to fit.  Down low, in a spot, anything goes.  Oh and the 500 pounders were still on the 38

Lt. Royal Madden  from the 370th FG, 9th AF, July 31, 1944

“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left.  I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me.  I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet.  This boy was good and he had me plenty worried  as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection.  I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst.  There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off.  He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home.  Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped.  As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”

I posted this AAR in another thread about flaps when someone challenged to find anything that shows real pilots using flaps in the way we do in AH.  Of course, it was ignored by the person that asked for the proof.  Why am I not surprised?


ack-ack

[Chalenge]

Ok, Im going to continue here: What is TRW and what sort of consequences and reluctance are you talking about?

The Real World (i.e. some place totally unfamiliar to some of us) which is very thankfully difficult to include in a video game.

[thorsim]

TRW = the real world ...

"your" applies in general to pilots nor specific to anyone.

if your chances of success outside your inherent envelope were not so adjusted in your planes by the way the flaps are represented in AH, then the instances of players making the decision to leave the respective inherent envelopes of their flap adjustable plane to fight inside the advantage envelope of another players superior maneuvering plane would be reduced.  probably in direct proportion to the lack of success that one would then expect to achieve fighting outside their envelope vs a plane that is inside its envelope.

being able to "fly" and being able to "fight" are dependent on very different levels of controllability in the real world.  imo this is not very well represented in the game.    

[Strip]

lol

I couldnt fly without the last two notches of flaps...

 

[thorsim]

i do not see him having deployed extreme deflections in this AAR therefore it is off the point and not worthy of reply.

no offense

+S+

t

I posted this AAR in another thread about flaps when someone challenged to find anything that shows real pilots using flaps in the way we do in AH.  Of course, it was ignored by the person that asked for the proof.  Why am I not surprised?


ack-ack

[Chalenge]

thorsim has completely derailed the thread now and turned it into another of his 'anti-flap' discussions.

[thorsim]

what does the POS say about low full flaps and being inverted as in a rolling scissor ...
 
what would a real pilot say about that?

It also appears that thorsim is automatically assuming that everyone that uses flaps just leave them out regardless of the consequences.  While that may be true of newer and inexperienced players, you will rarely see a veteran or more experienced player using flaps in such a way. 

Speaking only for myself, my flaps are only deployed when needed and as soon as I'm done, I raise them and never leave them hanging out.  You will never see my flying with full flaps left out, for instance if I need full flaps in a rolling scissors situation, I deploy them for when I need them and then immediately rectract them afterwards.  You'll find others that fly 'flap dependent' planes using flaps the same way.

ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

thorsim has completely derailed the thread now and turned it into another of his 'anti-flap' discussions.

Yeah, I bet he has nightmares about the "Flap Boogieman" coming to get him as he sleeps.  Makes one wonder if he really knows what he's talking about because it sure doesn't sound like it from my end.

ack-ack

[thorsim]

no actually it was B&Z ...

more accurately a quote from wildewing in an attempt to show why the pony was under modeled that introduced flaps into this discussion.

no offense

+S+

t

thorsim has completely derailed the thread now and turned it into another of his 'anti-flap' discussions.

[thorsim]

Yeah, I bet he has nightmares about the "Flap Boogieman" coming to get him as he sleeps.  Makes one wonder if he really knows what he's talking about because it sure doesn't sound like it from my end.

ack-ack

it's ok i understand how the thought of the removal of entitlements can be frightening ...

[Ack-Ack]

it's ok i understand how the thought of the removal of entitlements can be frightening ...

Why would it be frightening since the way you claim flaps are used in game is not the way I use them at all? 

Now for the trademark brutal honesty of Ack-Ack...

It's starting to sound more and more that you're getting your arse handed back to by those of us that fly "flap adjustable planes" and you're looking for a way to try and level the playing field so you can be competitive.  Don't know about you, but trying to pork the flaps (when there is nothing wrong with them) or trying to force people to use them how you think should be used is not the way to go about and improving one's skill.

Just sayin'

ack-ack

[Shuffler]

guppy and yeager what you fail to see in my point is that if the virtual consequences were more in line with TRW the reluctance in game would also mirror the situation in real life.

no you shouldn't die in the real world for doing something stupid in a video game.

but that doesn't mean you should be rewarded for being stupid in the video game where the same decision in the real world would likely kill you, does it?  

especially in a game that "mirrors" the real world ...

right?

no offense

+S+

t

It would not likely kill you with the thousands of hours we have. There is a better chance IF someone really good comes along that you may die. I fight low and slow in my 38J all the time... I kill more than I die.