Author Topic: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats  (Read 5210 times)

Offline Wreked

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2009, 03:20:41 PM »
If I understand correctly the purpose of these re-inactments is to see that, given similar circumstances, is it possible to change history - or at least see if it comes out roughly the same - - basically can we do better.

A good point was made recently about the Brits constraints of aircraft available  - If I'm not mistaken the # of available pilots was the real problem - just weren't enough of them - the extensive pilots schools in Canada had not kicked in yet and they were hard pressed to fill the aircraft they had.

It would see reasonable to give the Brits a bonus point for pilots that can be returned to action if shot down - Safe ditches/parachutes onto British soil etc etc. - outright deaths and perhaps sea ditches not counting. Of course this will put the brakes to free wheeling hordes chasing the  Luftwaffe all the way back to France - you can do it but at a cost.  :)

Also keep in mind that German bomber losses came in at around 9% - from the point of view of an ongoing war that is disasterous - that rate of loss will see them to the point of uselessness as an efffective force very quickly. This is something else that could be addressed in the point system - making bomber losses score higher would put more emphisis on their protection by fighters - places more demands on CO operational methods.

Does the loss of aircraft especially bombers (more costly to produce and man) affect the next Frame  ie. lose them this frame and you get fewer next? - once again putting operational pressure on the CO's  heheheh

Remember this is not the main - what works there doesn't always work here.  :)

..just my 2 cents Cdn eh! :D

-gotta say those Hurri's we encountered just west A18 were tough - fun time had here !!
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2009, 04:43:19 PM »
Also keep in mind that German bomber losses came in at around 9% - from the point of view of an ongoing war that is disasterous - that rate of loss will see them to the point of uselessness as an efffective force very quickly.

True, bomber loss rates were close to history, but fighter attrition rates are always astronomical in FSO compared to the real deal.
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Offline thorsim

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2009, 05:33:38 PM »
not sure what those hurri's were thinking there towards the end of the frame at the wrong end of the channel ...

pretty sure they won't be back ...

what was very realistic imo was the fuel multiplier in regards to the 109.  i ended up leading after our first scrap near 18 and after we finally got clear of that it took every last drop of our fuel just to get back to a safe base, there were some very nervous moments there ...

++S++ all fun frame.

t

A51 wasn't even scratched.  The Ju88s that were assigned to hit it didn't do so well: we shot them all down.  :)

Btw, if you're having trouble with the .303s, bring your convergence back to a range that seems silly and unreasonable, like 175 yards.  All of my kills on Friday took one good squirt of .303s.  Even the Ju-88 I shot down popped when the .303s hit at the same point. :aok

As for the results, they're no big deal.  I doubt that in the real BoB RAF Hurricane pilots went on sweeps toward France looking for 109s to fight with.
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Offline 68Wooley

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2009, 08:26:57 PM »
One other point to remember form history. The RAF did not prevent many raids reaching and bombing their targets. But it was never really expected that they would. Their role was simply to come out on top in the war of attrition. The RAF's victory in the Battle of Britain was simply to continue to exist as an effective fighting force.
 

Offline Squire

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2009, 09:11:52 PM »
"The RAF did not prevent many raids reaching and bombing their targets"

Ditto for 99 percent of all large raids in WW2. Preventing bombers from ever reaching the target was not a reasonable expectation. There were a few exceptions, and most of those are well covered. Even the Schweinfurt raids in 1943 with no fighter escort, flying into an area well covered by 1st rate radar of the day got through. Air War is a war of attrition, in almost all cases, from 1916-2009.

Re any cannon armed RAF fighter in the BoB: No. 19 Squadron for a few weeks did use the Spitfire IB as Shifty said, it had 2 x 20mm hispanos. It represented probably less than 1 percent of the total sorties flown by RAF Fighter Command. They had too many problems with jamming and were withdrawn, although the initial results were promising enough that the cannon idea was still worked on. There were no cannon armed Hurricanes at all in the battle, not even a single one. Just in case there are any lingering doubts. There were a few squadrons of Hurricane IIAs and IIBs, but these were definately not in any large #. Those were armed with 303s. There were a few Spitfire IIAs, also armed with 303s.

Just on a historical note regarding the pilots in the RAF at the time. The RAF could not have held out without the large # of aircrews from the British Commonwealth; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, S. Africa, Rhodesia, ect, and the foreign nationals; the Free Poles, Free Czecks, Free French, and some from the USA, some 487 "foreign pilots" in total. The transfers from other commands such as Bomber Command, Coastal Command, the Fleet Air Arm and Training units also were vital. They got anybody that could fly a fighter. It was a rather interesting bag of nationalities and individuals. Rather than the 1930s RAF which had been described as "the worlds most exclusive flying club" it more resembled a flying circus in the BoB, with many pilots from different parts of the globe. Of course the majority were English, Scot, and Welsh, and Northen Irish, from the British Isles.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 10:13:35 PM by Squire »
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Offline DrDea

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2009, 09:32:37 PM »
not sure what those hurri's were thinking there towards the end of the frame at the wrong end of the channel ...
pretty sure they won't be back ...
Im sure they will be in the next frame.  Seems someone thought letting the bombers go by them and telling the 334th to "go get em" while they did a fighter sweep to France made sense.Sure didnt make sense to me as as the role was to defend. But MA mentalities do tend to happen in FSO.
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Offline thorsim

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2009, 10:47:20 PM »
i meant back across the channel, i am sure they will be in the next frame, just a little sore, and wiser.

;)

++S++

t

Im sure they will be in the next frame.  Seems someone thought letting the bombers go by them and telling the 334th to "go get em" while they did a fighter sweep to France made sense.Sure didnt make sense to me as as the role was to defend. But MA mentalities do tend to happen in FSO.
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Offline DrDea

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2009, 11:24:50 PM »
i meant back across the channel, i am sure they will be in the next frame, just a little sore, and wiser.
Thats open for debate :aok
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Offline thorsim

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2009, 12:38:13 PM »
Thats open for debate :aok

of course it is ...

this is a bbs after all  :aok
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Offline Dantoo

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2009, 09:40:47 PM »

Quote
There were no cannon armed Hurricanes at all in the battle, not even a single one. Just in case there are any lingering doubts. There were a few squadrons of Hurricane IIAs and IIBs, but these were definately not in any large #. Those were armed with 303s. There were a few Spitfire IIAs, also armed with 303s.

With respect, I couldn't let that one slide by.  I have a book with a photo of L1750, a twin cannon armed Hurricane that flew in the Battle.  It was an experiment with 20mm Oerlikons in gondolas.  The pilot was Flight Lieutenant Dick Smith who was keen to test the firepower on a real target.  The weight and fittings of the cannon apparently were a stretch for the power then available in the Hurricane.  I can find a few references on the net:

Quote
F/L R.L.'Dick' Smith joined No 151 Squadron on the 10th of June 1940 as "B" Flight commander. His flying ability was rated "Exceptional". Realising he had no combat experience where as the men under his command did from their time in France, he put in as many hours as he could practising dog-fighting with them prior to his first sortie. He flew 133 sorties during the Battle of Britain. Some of these sortie's were at the controls of a two cannon armed Hurricane (L1750) or a four cannoned Hurricane(V7350) which until then were idle as no one wanted to fly them. The cannon slowed the Hurricane down and also made it less agile. On top of that it was aid that the cannons lacked reliability. He flew them on 110 operational sorties from North Weald. On the 13th of August 1940 he scored his first confirmed victory, a Do 17. He ended the Battle with this one kill, three probables, and two damaged and no recognition for having proved the cannon armed Hurricane's to be effective.

Here's some more info on interesting Hurricane experiments:
http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/PROJECTS.HTM

I get really really tired of selective realism disguised as a desire to make bombers easier to kill.

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Offline Cee64E

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2009, 09:44:47 PM »
Just to chime in on the allied side...

I have a blast at FSO and I am very grateful for the guys who put these things together at the cost of their own dime.  Thanks a bunch, guys.   :salute

I found the frame frustrating and difficult to fly and I've never had more fun.  I'm guessing that the pilots who flew it in 41 felt pretty much the same, except for the fun part.  This was a great experience!  I felt like I was there, with all the fear of failure and frustration with the situation.  It was great!

As for making allied pilots wait to scramble, that could be fun too but we should get some observers in coastal base towers to "scan the sky".  I don't know the history in detail but as a former soldier I remember doing sky watch.  Can't be a new idea and would simulate the relaying of info up the chain of command then out to the fighting wings...
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Offline DrDea

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2009, 10:07:19 PM »
With respect, I couldn't let that one slide by.  I have a book with a photo of L1750, a twin cannon armed Hurricane that flew in the Battle.  It was an experiment with 20mm Oerlikons in gondolas.  The pilot was Flight Lieutenant Dick Smith who was keen to test the firepower on a real target.  The weight and fittings of the cannon apparently were a stretch for the power then available in the Hurricane. 
With the power of the 109 running with gondolas,I can only shudder to think what they did to the Hurri 1.
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Offline Squire

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2009, 01:45:00 AM »
Thats an interesting bit of info, so I will say "other than L1750 and V7350" then. :aok  

Was going to add, I think the best idea for Hurricane armament in 1940 came from the Belgians, which were planning an order of 80 MkIs with 4 x 12.7mm FN machine guns rather than the 7.7mms.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 02:44:42 AM by Squire »
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2009, 06:11:46 AM »
Was going to add, I think the best idea for Hurricane armament in 1940 came from the Belgians, which were planning an order of 80 MkIs with 4 x 12.7mm FN machine guns rather than the 7.7mms.

That seems like some real firepower by 1940 standards.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that the Hurricane Mk IIC was not as capable a dogfighter as it is in AH.  The extra weight degraded its handling qualities, which isn't so noticeable in our game.

The RAF lacking firepower is all part of the BoB experience.  I've flown the Luftwaffe side of this and the 109E armament isn't easier, it's just different.
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Offline DrDea

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2009, 06:54:09 AM »
60 rounds of cannon in the 109 isnt alot to even a seasoned 109 stick. Add in the fuel issue and they had to hope to hit action in a hurry.
The Flying Circus.Were just like you.Only prettier.

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