Gunther Rall has passed

[KgB]

same as i said before.

it's 1942. you're a front line fighter pilot.

you have virtually no way of knowing what's going on at home.

your job is to go fly your aluminum death trap and stop the enemy. that's it. it's a fight just to live to the next day.

Oh yeah. It seemed normal when"back home" people walking around with yellow stars and later  as he flew over conscamps in eastern Europe.

[CAP1]

Oh yeah. It seemed normal when"back home" people walking around with yellow stars and later  as he flew over conscamps in eastern Europe.

yea, 'cause you can see that from 20,000 feet.

[KgB]

yea, 'cause you can see that from 20,000 feet.

Yep, pretty sure me109 had vertical take off option.

[Anaxogoras]

Going after someone who had nothing to do with the holocaust only removes some of the burden from those who were truly responsible.  The Germans were never collectively guilty.  That was their motto post-war you know, "we are all guilty," but that only whitewashes the actions of the true criminals.  There were specific people who made choices that shaped the events of history.  Don't confuse them with a 20 year old sent to fight and die at the front.

[SirFrancis]

Yep, pretty sure me109 had vertical take off option.

Sorry, but I have to throw my 2 eurocent into this debate.

Is there any proof the Mr. Rall had any knowledge about what happened in Dachau, Auschwitz or Buchenwald? If yes, present it to me. This hillybilly-talk about what Germans past generation knew and what not p&%$§" me off. Is anybody complaining about the massmurder of American Indians or people from Armenia in the 1920th? I don`t think so.....

Mr. Rall was a fighter pilot. His job was to shoot down allied aircraft. He did that very well. Thats it! Was he a Nazi? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe something between. But, he was a person who enjoyed flying and fighting. He was a person who looked into contact with old enemys after the war. He was respected by alliied fighter pilots and didn´t gave a sh$%§t too all the tree huggers.

So, he deserves a  

Regards
SF

p.s.: This thread should be closed now.

p.s. 2  -> there never was a collectively guilty. I don´t feel guilty, nor my parents. And I trust my grandmother that she wasn´t guilty as well. So if some1 try to put guilt on a group of people he doesn`t know personaly, he should keep his mouth shut.

[KgB]

Going after someone who had nothing to do with the holocaust only removes some of the burden from those who were truly responsible.  The Germans were never collectively guilty.  That was their motto post-war you know, "we are all guilty," but that only whitewashes the actions of the true criminals.  There were specific people who made choices that shaped the events of history.  Don't confuse them with a 20 year old sent to fight and die at the front.

You lost me.Its not about holocaust.

[Anaxogoras]

p.s. 2  -> there never was a collectively guilty. I don´t feel guilty, nor my parents. And I trust my grandmother that she wasn´t guilty as well. So if some1 try to put guilt on a group of people he doesn`t know personaly, he should keep his mouth shut.

Read Hannah Arendt's "Responsibility and Judgment."  Collective guilt was most definitely a popular excuse for not prosecuting criminals post war.

You lost me.Its not about holocaust.

You made it about the holocaust.  See your quote here:

Oh yeah. It seemed normal when"back home" people walking around with yellow stars and later  as he flew over conscamps in eastern Europe.

owned.

[KgB]

Read Hannah Arendt's "Responsibility and Judgment."  Collective guilt was most definitely a popular excuse for not prosecuting criminals post war.

You made it about the holocaust.  See your quote here:

Read further back

[Die Hard]

The Holocaust was a closely guarded secret for obvious reasons. It was even prohibited for people in the know to talk about it on the phone. Traudl Junge, Hitler's secretary, claimed she knew nothing of it. How can a fighter pilot on the eastern front be expected to know?

[SirFrancis]

[...] Collective guilt was most definitely a popular excuse for not prosecuting criminals post war.

That is true. But there never was/is a collective guilt for the Germans.

Regards
SF

[Anaxogoras]

That is true. But there never was/is a collective guilt for the Germans.

Regards
SF

Oh, I absolutely agree.  My bad if you had the impression that I thought that.

[Die Hard]

Not sure if I quite agree with that SirFrancis. The current generation of Germans are of course not guilty, but the WWII generation were in my opinion at least partly responsible for everything the Nazis did in their name. In principle, people deserve the government they have and are responsible for what that government does in their name.

[SirFrancis]

Oh, I absolutely agree.  My bad if you had the impression that I thought that.

There is no misunderstanding. But, as I stated before, people who don`t have any connections to the German WWII generation, should not be allowed to make any statements that conclude into the wrong impression.

Regards
SF  

[Anaxogoras]

Well then, Die Hard, I'm also going to recommend Hannah Arendt to you.  She has some of the best ethical insights into this topic that I have ever read.  "Eichmann in Jerusalem" should be required reading.

Before you assign collective guilt to a people, you first have to ask if the concept is coherent, and provide a good argument for it if you answer affirmatively.

[SirFrancis]

Not sure if I quite agree with that SirFrancis. The current generation of Germans are of course not guilty, but the WWII generation were in my opinion at least partly responsible for everything the Nazis did in their name. In principle, people deserve the government they have and are responsible for what that government does in their name.

Wow, thats a point. As far as my grandparents told me, they had nothing to do with the nazi party. But I think, and its based on what my grandmother told me, the German population was happy, that someone tried to work against the unemployment, the treaty of Versaille and to make the Germans proud. Nobody within the my grandmothers family and friends thought about killing jews.

Well, if you are in a state of frustration, you might follow that person, who promise you welfare, pride and healthcare. And you must know, antijudaism was very popular in the most of european countrys during that time.

Regards
SF