Badly beaten in a turn....

[Noah17]

Ok....I'm a little po'd....
This morning got killed and really don't understand what happened or, what I did wrong.

F4U-1d chasing me in a 1A. He's 800 behind me about level and just slightly angle off my left tail. I go in to left break turn banked @ almost 90 degrees. We were both too fast to use flaps, he's 60MPH faster than me and turns into me to pull lead with only a 45 degree bank. He then easily gains lead and hoses me.......I was pulling almost 6g's. How the hell is this possible when I was already inside his turn, started my turn first, and pulled harder than he did????

He was still carrying his freakin rockets too!!

I saved the film and was going to post it but I don't know how.
 

[Lusche]

If you have the film, it's better to wait for us with speculative explanations until you have posted it.

To do that you have to do the following:

Go to a file hosting website (for example www.mediafire.com ). Upload the film. After that, copy the link they do provide and post it here.

[Anaxogoras]

F4U-1d chasing me in a 1A. He's 800 behind me about level and just slightly angle off my left tail. I go in to left break turn banked @ almost 90 degrees. We were both too fast to use flaps, he's 60MPH faster than me and turns into me to pull lead with only a 45 degree bank. He then easily gains lead and hoses me.......I was pulling almost 6g's. How the hell is this possible when I was already inside his turn, started my turn first, and pulled harder than he did????

You were not yet inside his turn.  Your break turn path was across his line of sight, and since the F4U is great for deflection shooting, he made the shot.  This kind of thing happens all the time.

It's important to know that the further away the bandit is behind you, the gentler the turn he can use to track you before your lateral velocity becomes too great.  For aircraft with the .50 cal laser beam armament, this fact of geometry is extremely useful because it's not hard to precisely hit a target from 600 yards out when the entire planform is exposed during a turn.

P.S. I would bet money this F4U pilot has rudder pedals.

[WMLute]

Take your hands, position them one behind the other with the back one slightly off angle.

Now take your front hand and bank it left @ 90 degrees.

[Mace2004]

F4U-1d chasing me in a 1A. He's 800 behind me about level and just slightly angle off my left tail. I go in to left break turn banked @ almost 90 degrees. We were both too fast to use flaps, he's 60MPH faster than me and turns into me to pull lead with only a 45 degree bank. He then easily gains lead and hoses me.......I was pulling almost 6g's. How the hell is this possible when I was already inside his turn, started my turn first, and pulled harder than he did????
 

THis is very easy to explain.  It's simply geometry.  You both start your turns at the same time but his turn center is offset 800 ft inside of your turn.  Since he's faster his radius will be larger but he's not following your flight path.  He's cutting across your turn circle to a point ahead of you.  He can continue with greater speed in which he will have a high aspect shot on you but you're presenting him with an easy planform target unless you're prepared for an out of plane maneuver to make him miss.  If he misses, he'll overshoot outside of your turn and you can reverse on him.  If he's smart, he'll probably chop throttle before reaching you so he can slow to your speed and turn radius to saddle up.  I have a simple line drawing which shows what I'm talking about but my FTP server seems to be down.  If it comes up soon I'll post it.

[Noah17]

http://www.mediafire.com/?ozxyqu2q2dy

Gents thanks for all your input. Mace, I also really appreciate your description. From looking at the film from behind my opponents plane the move didn't look natural..... but, what the hec do I know.


I posted the link to the film above. I've never used a "file hosting site" before.
I hope I've posted it correctly.

[The Fugitive]

maybe this will make it a bit easier to understand. In the picture below (from your film one second before you die) who has pulled the harder turn?

[Noah17]

Fugitive,

That's an amazing view.  Thanks!

I am not used to the "trail" views. From this view you can see I pulled the harder turn. I thought I would pull harder I just thought my opponent wouldn't have been able to pull enough.
I had thought that the difference in speed (me being slower) in combination with the angle I pulled would have
made a significantly greater difference.... Nope...

I don't know how to say it but somehow I would have thought I could have "out turned" him. This pic and Maces' description certainly tell the story.

Other than a barrel roll or flat scissors what other way could have helped me make my escape? My flat scissors always seems to leave me flat/slow and most people just pull up. My barrel roll never seems to throw any one off.

Lusche, Anaxogoras, WMLute, Mace2004, Fugitive Thanks again for your help.

[Anaxogoras]

Hi Noah,

I'm glad you feel you've been helped.  In my experience, there's a world of difference between a bandit 1.2k behind you, and 800 behind you.  When the bandit is 1.2k behind, your break turn into him will create enough lateral motion to throw off his shot; at 800 it will not.  If the attacker were very close, e.g. inside 400 yards, then again the break turn might work because the attacker will have to turn much harder to pull lead for the shot.  These numbers are not solid because there are lot of variables in aircraft types, speeds, etc., but they do illustrate the general point, which is that there's a sweet spot distance for an attacker where a defensive break turn presents a big target.

Mtnman or TC should have some good F4U tips for you shortly.

[Mace2004]

In my experience, there's a world of difference between a bandit 1.2k behind you, and 800 behind you.  When the bandit is 1.2k behind, your break turn into him will create enough lateral motion to throw off his shot; at 800 it will not.  If the attacker were very close, e.g. inside 400 yards, then again the break turn might work because the attacker will have to turn much harder to pull lead for the shot.  These numbers are not solid because there are lot of variables in aircraft types, speeds, etc., but they do illustrate the general point, which is that there's a sweet spot distance for an attacker where a defensive break turn presents a big target.

Anaxogoras is right, he may not know it but the "sweet spot" he's describing is the control zone.  The control zone is a cone around your extended six (think of your aircraft dragging around a sugar cone).  This cone can be between 30 and 45 degrees off your tail (depending upon the relative maneuverability of the two fighters).  There is also a range componenent that, for WWII planes, is from about 400 yds out to about 800.  Once inside the cone betwen those ranges the bandit is too close for you to out turn him but too far to confuse him much by jinking or changing speeds.  If he's more maneuverable and co-e he'll just turn within your plane of motion.  If he's less maneuverable but with either greater or lessor E then he can high or low yo-yo to maintain position.   If he has more e he can also drop into lag pursuit.  You are too far away from him to generate a lot of track crossing rates but too close to generate lots of angles before he has a gun solution.  Tough spot to be in and the spot you were in.  Too often people wait until they're in this position before worrying about what to do and, quite frankly, there are not a lot of choices and the all require the bandit to make a mistake.

In your case, you waited way too long to react and when you did you made it easy for him.  He had more E than you and you turned nose high.  This slowed you down and let him have an easy planform shot at you while you really just hung there.  Better would have been for you to make a hard, nose low turn and just as he begins to open fire level your wings and go up.  As you go up, roll some more to point your wingtip at him taking away the planform shot and letting you pull hardest across his nose rather than at it.  He whould now have to adjust his gunnery from a nose low shot against a planform to a nose up shot against a small target that has created some track crossing rate in the opposite direction.  Is it easy to do and 100% effective?  Absolutely not.  If he's expecting it or you have too little e its an easy move to counter but it's better than nothing.  It's just one of a few limited and not great options to could have tried but it really goes back to letting him get set up in your control zone in the first place.

[CAP1]

Anaxogoras is right, he may not know it but the "sweet spot" he's describing is the control zone.  The control zone is a cone around your extended six (think of your aircraft dragging around a sugar cone).  This cone can be between 30 and 45 degrees off your tail (depending upon the relative maneuverability of the two fighters).  There is also a range componenent that, for WWII planes, is from about 400 yds out to about 800.  Once inside the cone betwen those ranges the bandit is too close for you to out turn him but too far to confuse him much by jinking or changing speeds.  If he's more maneuverable and co-e he'll just turn within your plane of motion.  If he's less maneuverable but with either greater or lessor E then he can high or low yo-yo to maintain position.   If he has more e he can also drop into lag pursuit.  You are too far away from him to generate a lot of track crossing rates but too close to generate lots of angles before he has a gun solution.  Tough spot to be in and the spot you were in.  Too often people wait until they're in this position before worrying about what to do and, quite frankly, there are not a lot of choices and the all require the bandit to make a mistake.

In your case, you waited way too long to react and when you did you made it easy for him.  He had more E than you and you turned nose high.  This slowed you down and let him have an easy planform shot at you while you really just hung there.  Better would have been for you to make a hard, nose low turn and just as he begins to open fire level your wings and go up.  As you go up, roll some more to point your wingtip at him taking away the planform shot and letting you pull hardest across his nose rather than at it.  He whould now have to adjust his gunnery from a nose low shot against a planform to a nose up shot against a small target that has created some track crossing rate in the opposite direction.  Is it easy to do and 100% effective?  Absolutely not.  If he's expecting it or you have too little e its an easy move to counter but it's better than nothing.  It's just one of a few limited and not great options to could have tried but it really goes back to letting him get set up in your control zone in the first place.

I THINK this just helped me a lot too.

 i had developed a habit of letting a higher, faster bandit get less then 1k out, before i would do any avoidance maneuvers, thinking this would make it much harder for him to line up a shot on me.
 apparently, just the opposite is true. 

[boomerlu]

Mace, awesome description. I kind of noticed this same thing too in my flying, just wasn't quite sure how to describe it. The range of distances varies a lot with the types of aircraft involved though.

[StokesAk]

He killed you but here is a tip that works for me most of the time.

Pull up into a high climbing spiral while throwing flaps out, he will overshoot and may get low and slow with you where you can beat him 1v1.

[Noah17]

Mace and, Anaxogoras that is really great stuff!

There have been other times where I've had someone on my tail about 800 or so out but I had more altitude to work with. I'd go in to a gradual nose down turn to pick up speed (this is if I could out run my opponent) and make it a little more difficult for them to lead me to get the shot. This time I had no altitude...and even if I did I was facing the same type of aircraft.

Although I have considered others crossing the circle to shoot me I always thought of it in the vertical (zooming) not pulling too hard but I guess it's all the same, there is no difference. Separation is separation....

It seems like this thread has been helpful to others as well. Glad for that. Thanks again for being so helpful and generous with your time. My name's been showing up maybe a little too much on the BBS. I don't want to wear out my welcome.
 

[boomerlu]

Don't worry Noah, you're asking useful and interesting questions.