Frame 1 Rules Clarification.......

[daddog]

What BigR said.

[Strip]

Legit?.... Yes, it was within the rules.

Gamey?...You be the judge.

I guarantee no CV was ever sunk in real life like that....

[BigR]

Legit?.... Yes, it was within the rules.

Gamey?...You be the judge.

I guarantee no CV was ever sunk in real life like that....

Well its a good thing this isn't real life! There is something to be said for having fun while playing a game. Although no CV was ever sunk by strafing, a Japanese CV could at least be put out of commission since its decks were made of wood. All i know is that there was a whole gaggle of Zekes that could have stopped the attack, but they were not able to. The best part was when we realized we just killed their only place to land for about 5 sectors with 15 minutes left in the frame =).

[Strip]

That depends on your idea of fun I guess...

While every FSO event is fun as a whole (for me) gameplay issues like this detract from the authenticity of an event that strives to be authentic and realistic.

Strip

[oneway]

I see you didn't fly in this last FSO Strip...

Hope you can make it this Friday

Oneway

[Strip]

Not under Strip....glad to see your keeping tabs on me and worried about my welfare tho.

 

And no I cant.....the Bradenton Five Day is going on this week with $10,000 to win each day with $5,000 second chance race.

Drag Racing>AcesHigh

Strip

[haasehole]

 seems like to me they were just... getting it down ords not enough then strafit it.. good job 

[oneway]

Oh?

What shadow name did you use for the FSO?

Oneway

[Greziz]

Mg's can do some solid damage to targets like hangers and cv's a 50 cal is worth about 1.06 ord or something like that if your spray from 1k out and put about 300 mg's in it before pulling away you did roughly 300 ord of damage add in 10 other buddies doing their best with their 50's and 30cal's and you can put some hurt out like that but I digress we did indeed put our ord on that cv hard My guess is the cv was almost spotless of damage when we came in cause my 1 500 lber broke 14 objects on that carrier All I have to say for the people flying those precious b-17's Please take an hour to learn the manual calibration and please keep em alive, you will probably be pleasantly surprised by what those little 100's can do in mass if you can calibrate manually and hit the target.

[50cals]

<S> All

That was one hell of a run us Nightmares made on that cv. Seeing all those zekes and some coalt as we dove in with our eggs was insane !  That was our 2nd unintended mission, first was the defense of v68.

Would have loved to have seen it from the zekes eyes as we dove in , bombed the cv, egressed killing zekes, zekes trailing....  we turned back to cv with just our 50's LOL  zekes still behind us , ini on CV gunning away , our last man Tyrnm got the cv on his pass !! WTG .

On our way out those zekes that tried to kill us met their demise as we flew an awesome rtb defending attack lol

<S> to all  Very fun FSO !!

50cals :>)
Nightmares VMF-101

[Dadsguns]

That depends on your idea of fun I guess...

While every FSO event is fun as a whole (for me) gameplay issues like this detract from the authenticity of an event that strives to be authentic and realistic.

Strip

I completely agree.
With this rule the way it is, those that cannot or have not taken the time to learn manual bombing or dive bombing techniques can simply attempt to drop ords(miss) or en-route drop them and let the gaggle strafe down targets.  
It actually looked and seemed M-A'ish to me, but even there that wouldn't happen since the ack and manned guns would have done a number on them.
IMO

Edit:
After reviewing the film from the FSO attack, it appears that 6 maybe 7 P40's attempted to drop the CV with ords, the remainder of the 10-12 did not have ords.
The remaining 16 P40's that survived the initial attack turned around and strafed with their guns to take it down.

16 P40's can do alot of damage to a CV or structure as you could imagine.  And most certainly would not be a realistic tactic due to the high risk involved with manned ack guns and flak.

Had they taken it down with ords alone, that would have been more realistic IMO.

[M36]

The rule was that you have to make an attempt with ord before 60 minutes. The B17s were that attempt. That is the only requirement. After the initial bombing attempt, it doesn't matter what you use. Ive seen this done many many times during FSOs on targets on air bases. Ive even seen bombers drop their bombs, and then make low strafing passes with their turrets. There is long standing precedent that makes the attack on the CV legit.

As I read the rule, for what its worth, strafing of the CV is not allowed, as it say's, "simply strafing the target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of the rule".
And when the beginning of the rule specifically says "bombs and rockets". Where does it say in the rule that strafing is allowed after the first attempt? That part is missing in the rule but with the above statement, it is allowed under the so called "long standing precedent" clause. So it is against the rules, but it is OK to bend the rules because someone did it before.

With an event full of rules, and all I have read that about having to follow the rules, since I am new, what other rules have exceptions to them that I can break because of a "long standing precedent"?

"Long standing precedent" is pretty lame when it comes to rules. Either it's in the rule or it isnt, and in this case it is not, as it is written, and someone at some time didnt want to apply the rule when he should have which resulted in the "hey they did it, so can we" attitude.  Why not just follow the rules or amend them so everyone will know what the rule is and get rid of this nonsnse? And those that have said it is OK, would you please point this out to me in the rule where it say's it is OK to do this?

[Dadsguns]

As I read the rule, for what its worth, strafing of the CV is not allowed, as it say's, "simply strafing the target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of the rule".
And when the beginning of the rule specifically says "bombs and rockets". Where does it say in the rule that strafing is allowed after the first attempt? That part is missing in the rule but with the above statement, it is allowed under the so called "long standing precedent" clause. So it is against the rules, but it is OK to bend the rules because someone did it before.

With an event full of rules, and all I have read that about having to follow the rules, since I am new, what other rules have exceptions to them that I can break because of a "long standing precedent"?

"Long standing precedent" is pretty lame when it comes to rules. Either it's in the rule or it isnt, and in this case it is not, and someone at some time didnt want to apply the rule when he should have which resulted in the "hey they did it, so can we" attitude.  Why not just follow the rules or amend them so everyone will know what the rule is and get rid of this nonsnse?

Well said. 

[lowZX14]

As I read the rule, for what its worth, strafing of the CV is not allowed, as it say's, "simply strafing the target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of the rule".
And when the beginning of the rule specifically says "bombs and rockets". Where does it say in the rule that strafing is allowed after the first attempt? That part is missing in the rule but with the above statement, it is allowed under the so called "long standing precedent" clause. So it is against the rules, but it is OK to bend the rules because someone did it before.

With an event full of rules, and all I have read that about having to follow the rules, since I am new, what other rules have exceptions to them that I can break because of a "long standing precedent"?

"Long standing precedent" is pretty lame when it comes to rules. Either it's in the rule or it isnt, and in this case it is not, and someone at some time didnt want to apply the rule when he should have which resulted in the "hey they did it, so can we" attitude.  Why not just follow the rules or amend them so everyone will know what the rule is and get rid of this nonsnse?

Ok, it's not that hard to understand this.  
Here is the rule verbatim, "All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance, (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that the main attacks reach their targets by T+60. Administrator CM's may request copies of orders to evaluate the observance of this rule."

The bold part is what you want to consider and interpret.  As long as a target/objective is attacked before T+60 with ordinance such as bombs or rockets, everything is fine.  After that, you can strafe until you're heart's content.  The rule is there so that CiC's can't just send a small force of fighters to an objective to strafe it satisfying the rule of attacking by T+60.  I wasn't even there this frame so I can objectively tell you that there was no bending of the rules whatsoever.  Some people may think it's gamey or not fun and that is their opinion, I'm leaving mine out of this discussion.  Any time you have a large number of people getting together for a common cause or event such as FSO you will always have disputes and differences of opinion on a few things and that is fine because everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

See, this thread along with others shows the glaring problems that the FSO Team is facing.  I'm not even on the FSO Team and it's giving me a headache, much less the guys that are spending their own time to bring this event to life.  You have certain people who seem to want a rule for every situation typed out in exact letter and seem to want the rules as air tight as a legal document, but on the other hand there are others who feel that too many rules and a sort of micro-management of the CiC's by the CM's ties the CiC's hands and does not allow much flexibility and creativity.  It's a fine line that the CM's are facing to make this an enjoyable event for everybody involved and I believe that a few people need to step back, take a deep breath, and be thankful that they have something like FSO to attend on Friday nights or any of the other special events that take place.  Ok, I'm done with the soapbox, who's next?

[Dadsguns]

The bold part is what you want to consider and interpret.  As long as a target/objective is attacked before T+60 with ordinance such as bombs or rockets, everything is fine.  After that, you can strafe until you're heart's content.

"All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame.(MET)
 
They must be attacked with explosive ordinance, (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron.(This wasnt met since all in the attacking force were not outfitted with bombs or attempted to drop ords, as stated only 6 maybe 7 had dropped ords or even had them.  Had they all been loaded with ords 16 P40's would have easily taken the CV out in a realistic manner.)

Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule."(16 P40's did just that, strafed the target)

Then it clearly needs to say that. Which it currently and clearly does not.
 
 

"See, this thread along with others shows the glaring problems that the FSO Team is facing."  

If rules were worded in a way that did not lead to different conclusions or interpretations then they wouldn't have that issue. Would you not agree?


I appreciate what the FSO team has done and what they accomplish for so many others. But to be honest, they do not have the proper guidance in the rules to be successful or to minimize issues as this where wording of the rules are apparently not clear, but more vague or left to the "long standing precedent" way of interpreting the rules.

I wont say who it was but yes I do believe this tactic along with the diving B17's attempting to drop its ords was M-A'ish.