Author Topic: New History Channel Program  (Read 4093 times)

Offline soda72

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2009, 06:37:48 PM »
Heh... did some digging. At Kursk the Luftwaffe lost 609 aircraft; that's almost the entire strength of the 8th AAF at the time... in one battle.

In 1943 the US produced more aircraft than Germany, USSR, and UK combined...  They would have replaced all 600 aircraft in 4 days...

 ;)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2009, 07:01:22 PM »
In 1943 the US produced more aircraft than Germany, USSR, and UK combined...  They would have replaced all 600 aircraft in 4 days...

 ;)

Lol no. Not that far off, but not quite. ;)  It should be no surprise to you then that it was only in 1944 the air war in the west gained a significant role in the war. In 1943 the 8th AAF mounted two major raids into Germany... two, and both went disastrously wrong. Some historians argue that the Germans lost the war at Moscow in '41... Some say Stalingrad in '42, and some think the Germans still had a chance of grasping victory from the jaws of defeat at Kursk in 1943... However, what they all agree on is that by 1944 the war in the east was definitely lost for Germany. So yeah... we did save Europe, but not from Germany.

It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2009, 07:03:25 PM »
In 1943 the US produced more aircraft than Germany, USSR, and UK combined...  They would have replaced all 600 aircraft in 4 days...

 ;)

You realize you're wasting your time with him right?
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2009, 07:07:42 PM »
You realize you're wasting your time with him right?

Just like you're doing now?
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline crazyivan

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2009, 07:08:58 PM »
Germany has the second highest number of military deaths on the chart, second only to the Soviets. What's your point?
Smaller country bulling  the larger country! :D Eff figures Japan didnt want to attack Russia.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2009, 07:46:09 PM »
So yeah... we did save Europe, but not from Germany.

Half of it maybe.
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Offline Jappa52

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2009, 10:12:16 PM »
The remake of Pearl Harbor was typically "by Americans for Americans", I thought it was just embarrassing. U-571 too, but at least Hollywood doesn't proclaim historical accuracy like the History or Discovery channels do. Sometime the bias is almost too obvious, like that "Top 10 fighters" show; P-51 won with the Spit coming second. The 109 got an honorable mention at number 7... the 262 wasn't mentioned with one word. And that whispering idiot hosting "Future Weapons" is nothing more than a sales rep for American and Israeli defense industries. Don't get me started on "Dogfights"...

you cannot be serious with this post... Pearl Harbor? ffs


*just read the rest of your posts.... youre serious. :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 10:15:49 PM by Jappa52 »
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2009, 11:13:02 PM »
you cannot be serious with this post... Pearl Harbor? ffs


*just read the rest of your posts.... youre serious. :rolleyes:

He's serious. 
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #83 on: November 18, 2009, 12:45:40 AM »
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #84 on: November 18, 2009, 01:06:29 AM »
Heh... did some digging. At Kursk the Luftwaffe lost 609 aircraft; that's almost the entire strength of the 8th AAF at the time... in one battle.

The Americans had 2069 a/c in July, 2452 a/c in Aug and 2827 a/c in Sept just in the ETO.

Offline Die Hard

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #85 on: November 18, 2009, 04:00:24 AM »
The Americans had 2069 a/c in July, 2452 a/c in Aug and 2827 a/c in Sept just in the ETO.

Not in the 8th. Not in the ETO. Maybe in the ETO and MTO combined.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2009, 07:37:05 AM »
MTO: July - 4030, Aug - 3700, Sept - 3527

In July 1943 there was 856 (Aug - 907, Sept - 971) B-17s and B-24s in the ETO. VIIIth FC was part of the 8th AF so you can add fighters to the bomber numbers.

Numbers from the Army Air Force Statistical Digest, Tables 89 and 90.
http://www.usaaf.net/digest/index.htm

Offline Die Hard

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2009, 10:48:10 AM »
Those tables don't seem to be available at that site. Do you have a copy?
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Die Hard

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2009, 03:55:50 PM »
However, table no. 100 is available: Losses of All Types of Airplanes Overseas, By Theater and By Type of Loss: 1941 to 1945, and it shows a very clear picture of the level of USAAF involvement in the ETO:

Total losses in 1942: 133 aircraft.

Total losses in 1943 (Jun-Dec): 1,651 aircraft.

Total losses in 1944: 10,447 aircraft.

1944 is when the air war in the west gained a significance in the war... However, Germany had already lost in the east.


Table 2 -- Combat Groups Overseas, By Theater and By Type of Group: Dec 1941 to Aug 1945 lists the total number of heavy bombardment groups in both the ETO and MTO in August 1943 at 17. In 1943 a heavy bombardment group had a total complement of 294 officers and 1,487 enlisted men to fly and support 48 heavy bombers. That's a maximum of 816 bombers if all the groups are at full strength. In reality each group operated only between 20 and 30 bombers due to attrition. They also operated a total of 7 fighter groups with anywhere from two to four squadrons in each group. So a total of less than 1,000 aircraft capable of attacking Germany in both the ETO and MTO in August 1943.

On August 17, 1943 the 8th AAF threw their whole operational strength at Schweinfurth and Regensburg. A total of 376 bombers and 268 fighters.

Regensburg Task Force organization
            
Group / UK Base / Sent / Losses
96th / Snetterton Heath / 21 / 0
388th / Knettishall / 21 / 1
390th / Framlingham / 20 / 6
94th / Bury St. Edmunds / 21 / 1
385th / Great Ashfield / 21 / 3
95th / Horham / 21 / 4
100th / Thorpe Abbotts / 21 / 9

353rd Fighter Group / 37 P-47
56th Fighter Group / 50 P-47


Schweinfurt mission organization
            
Group / UK Base / Sent / Losses
91st / Bassingbourn / 18 / 7
101st Composite Group / 19 / 6
381st / Ridgewell / 20 / 9
351st / Polebrook / 21 / 1
306th Composite Group / 20 / 0
384th / Grafton Underwood / 18 / 5
306th / Thurleigh / 21 / 0
305th / Chelveston / 20 / 2
92d / Alconbury / 20 / 2
379th / Kimbolton / 18 / 0
103rd Composite Group / 17 / 4
303rd / Molesworth / 18 / 0

78th Fighter Group / 40 P-47
4th Fighter Group / 48 P-47
56th Fighter Group / 51 P-47
353rd Fighter Group / 42 P-47

That was the largest raid conducted by the 8th AAF in 1943.




On August 1, 1943 the 9th AAF in the MTO launched Operation Tidal Wave - The raid on Ploesti. The 9th AAF had only two bombardment groups and had to borrow three groups from the 8th AAF to cobble together a strike force of 178 aircraft. They were met by 52 Axis fighters.

That was the largest raid conducted by the 9th AAF in 1943.


By contrast during the Battle of Kursk the Luftwaffe flew 27,221 sorties in ten days during the initial German offensive from July 5 to July 15, 1943. On July 5 alone they flew 4,475 sorties...  one day. The Soviets flew 118,000 sorties during their counterattack from August 5 to 23. 118,000 sorties in two and a half weeks... (Kursk 1943: A Statistical Analysis, by Niklas Zetterling, Anders Frankson.) It remains the largest series of armored clashes, including the Battle of Prokhorovka, the largest series of air battles including the largest dogfight near Kharkov, a huge melee of more than 500 aircraft fighting at treetop level, and the costliest single day of aerial warfare to date. It was the last strategic offensive the Germans were able to mount in the east.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 04:40:00 PM by Die Hard »
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Shuffler

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Re: New History Channel Program
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2009, 04:04:28 PM »
mmm great reading....


Discussions far outperform bickering.  :aok
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