Author Topic: Whistle blowing on Global Warming  (Read 117674 times)

Offline Penguin

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #660 on: December 23, 2009, 05:44:12 PM »
I can see what you guys are getting at, this IS about the people!

Well, I can't speak on their behalf, as it seems they are making things up.  But here's my question: Why?

Why ruin your credibility with made up stories like that?  Why get the world in a tizzy over nothing (supposedly). 

Here's my position, put as simply as I can on emissions:

1. There is no reason to keep using oil, coal, and other fossil fuels, as this will warm the planet

2. Burning just about anything (especially coal) releases carcinogens

3. If we continue doing this, we will probably see either

   a.) A drastic rise in sea levels

   b.) A good-sized rise in cancer (lung types, mainly)

4. We will eventually run out of these fuels, and should try to avoid oil price upheaval by using renewable energy, and cutting emissions of greenhouse gases. 

Ok, this is my point, go ahead and shoot at it now.
 :cheers:
-Penguin

Offline FYB

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #661 on: December 23, 2009, 06:20:47 PM »
Anyone else going to incredibly slap Penguin besides me?
I honestly think you should shut it on these types of threads, just because of that last post where you said something quite stupid in a sense that, yes, ingenious idea. Yet you yourself haven't done anything of such... Take those four reasons of yours and put them into action, by that i mean, try it yourself.
I'd like to see how far you get, the only way to stop is by progress. That is a whole other subject relating to this one, which requires time.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #662 on: December 23, 2009, 07:05:07 PM »
I can see what you guys are getting at, this IS about the people!

Well, I can't speak on their behalf, as it seems they are making things up.  But here's my question: Why?

Why ruin your credibility with made up stories like that?  Why get the world in a tizzy over nothing (supposedly). 

Here's my position, put as simply as I can on emissions:

1. There is no reason to keep using oil, coal, and other fossil fuels, as this will warm the planet

2. Burning just about anything (especially coal) releases carcinogens

3. If we continue doing this, we will probably see either

   a.) A drastic rise in sea levels

   b.) A good-sized rise in cancer (lung types, mainly)

4. We will eventually run out of these fuels, and should try to avoid oil price upheaval by using renewable energy, and cutting emissions of greenhouse gases. 

Ok, this is my point, go ahead and shoot at it now.
 :cheers:
-Penguin

so.....are you willing to give up virtually EVERYTHING you have that needed "fossil" fuels to make, or deliver. before you answer, there is NOTHING that you can buy that isn't on a truck at some point.
 another clue....they're not fossil fuels, and we;re not gonna run out.

 another clue....if i recall, they were sayin this same stuff 25 years ago. yet nothing bad has happened yet.

 another clue....co2 is not pollution.

so.......if you feel so strongly against this stuff, you should give away your house, and everything in it, give away all of your motorized stuff, and go live in the woods.

 i know this sounds mean, but all of you people that say this crap, turn right around, and continue using it.

 do you realize while the powers that be expect us to drive little 2 and 3 cylinder poop boxes for cars, they're driving around in limos, suv's, and other big crap? they fly in private jets.

 you really need to get a clue dude.
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #663 on: December 23, 2009, 07:12:12 PM »
you know, as well as the rest of us.....they'll find a reason that colder weather is a sign of impending warming.

Actually, that's just a side effect of a sun that's been asleep for 2 years.  Give it a couple more, to get back to historical norms.  Then come and talk.  

The last three weeks have shown the most activity on the sun in 3 years.  It's coming out of a longer than usual minimum.  If you don't trust me, you can easily find the information on many sites, that are more knowledgeable that I.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 07:14:37 PM by MORAY37 »
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #664 on: December 23, 2009, 07:15:05 PM »
Actually, that's just a side effect of a sun that's been asleep for 2 years.  Give it a couple more, to get back to historical norms.  Then come and talk.  

The last three weeks have shown the most activity on the sun in 3 years.  It's coming out of a longer than usual minimum.  If you don't trust me, you can easily find the information on many sites, that are more knowledgeable that I.

(Image removed from quote.)

so what you're saying then, is that the sun is responsible for global climate change...or global warming....or global cooling....what ever it's being called this week.

 regardless, if it's the sun, then it's still not man made, and still the earth's natural cycle.
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #665 on: December 23, 2009, 08:09:41 PM »

another clue....they're not fossil fuels, and we;re not gonna run out. 

You are completely incorrect on that statement.  That is a total falsehood.  If you have ever learned anything of the earth's history, you would know that dinosaurs and their assorted bretheren walked this earth for millions upon millions of years.

In prehistoric times, there were swamps that eventually were covered with rock.  Intense heat and pressure compressed and rearranged the molecules of these compunds and  changed them into oil and coal.  Tell me how these are not "fossil" fuels.  

So far you have given no evidence to support your points.  If you are to tell me that all of those organic compounds just went away, then you are a complete liar.  All you have done to prove your point is to contradict me.  Here is my proof, from:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crude_Oil

Formation
According to generally accepted theory, petroleum is derived from ancient biomass.[14] The theory was initially based on the isolation of molecules from petroleum that closely resemble known biomolecules (Figure).

 
Structure of vanadium porphyrin compound extracted from petroleum by Alfred Treibs, father of organic geochemistry. Treibs noted the close structural similarity of this molecule and chlorophyll a.
More specifically, crude oil and natural gas are products of heating of ancient organic materials (i.e. kerogen) over geological time. Formation of petroleum occurs from hydrocarbon pyrolysis, in a variety of mostly endothermic reactions at high temperature and/or pressure.[15] Today's oil formed from the preserved remains of prehistoric zooplankton and algae, which had settled to a sea or lake bottom in large quantities under anoxic conditions (the remains of prehistoric terrestrial plants, on the other hand, tended to form coal). Over geological time the organic matter mixed with mud, and was buried under heavy layers of sediment resulting in high levels of heat and pressure (diagenesis). This process caused the organic matter to change, first into a waxy material known as kerogen, which is found in various oil shales around the world, and then with more heat into liquid and gaseous hydrocarbons via a process known as catagenesis.

Geologists often refer to the temperature range in which oil forms as an "oil window"[16]—below the minimum temperature oil remains trapped in the form of kerogen, and above the maximum temperature the oil is converted to natural gas through the process of thermal cracking. Sometimes, oil which is formed at extreme depths may migrate and become trapped at much shallower depths than where it was formed. The Athabasca Oil Sands is one example of this.

And here is my proof that you are wrong: Again same place.

Extensive research into the chemical structure of kerogen has identified algae as the primary source of oil. The abiogenic origin hypothesis fails to explain the presence of these markers in kerogen and oil, as well as failing to explain how inorganic origin could be achieved at temperatures and pressures sufficient to convert kerogen to graphite. It has not been successfully used in uncovering oil deposits by geologists, as the hypothesis lacks any mechanism for determining where the process may occur.

If you don't trust Wikipedia, here are some other sites: http://library.thinkquest.org/J0112442/historyform.html

Oil is a fossil fuel. Millions of years ago, tiny sea creatures and plants died and fell to the bottom of the ocean floor. Layer on top of layer of this organic material collected and decomposed. Year after year, sand and rocks covered the layers until pressure built up.  The high temperature of the rotting material, along with the pressure from the layers of rock and sand that covered it, caused a chemical reaction. Eventually, petroleum was created. Then the ancient seas dried up and oil remained trapped under tons of earth.

This is from http://www.earthsky.org/faqpost/energy/how-do-coal-and-oil-form

Both coal and oil are fossil fuels. That means they’re formed from organic matter – stuff that was alive on Earth millions of years ago – that was covered by heavy layers of rock. Over time, the increased pressures and heat resulting from the overlying rock transformed the decomposed matter to coal or oil.

Both coal and oil are carbon-based fuels – they’re made up mostly of carbon and hydrogen. Coal usually forms from buried tissues of higher plants. Most of Earth’s coal originated as trees, ferns, and other tropical forest plants that lived in a warmer time in our history. That’s why the world’s coal beds are found on land.

Oil mostly originated as very simple organisms – such as bacteria, algae and plankton. This organic matter – and often the sandstone or limestone beds that hold the oil – was deposited in marine or lake basins, and in the ocean. Both oil and coal are non-renewable – once we use up all we have, it’s gone.


Checkmate.  :cool:

-Penguin
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 08:11:16 PM by Penguin »

Offline Widewing

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #666 on: December 23, 2009, 08:18:20 PM »
 
Here is my proof, from:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crude_Oil

"According to generally accepted theory"


You can't prove anything with a theory.

Try again.



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Widewing



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Offline saggs

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #667 on: December 23, 2009, 08:22:42 PM »
Actually, that's just a side effect of a sun that's been asleep for 2 years.  Give it a couple more, to get back to historical norms.  Then come and talk.  

The last three weeks have shown the most activity on the sun in 3 years.  It's coming out of a longer than usual minimum.  If you don't trust me, you can easily find the information on many sites, that are more knowledgeable that I.

(Image removed from quote.)

So.. ... Let me get this conversation straight.

So you say man is responsible for the globe warming, but... ... it's stopped warming !?!

     "Oh, that's cause the sun's at a solar minimum, just wait till it ramps up again and we'll see warming."

But I though man was responsible for warming??

     "We are, it's just stopped cause the sunspot cycle is at it's low."

So the sun is responsible for warming?!?

     "No, we are, just wait till the sun heats up again and you'll see."

So man is responsible, but it's stopped because of the sun, even though we emit more CO2 then ever?

     "Exactly"

Ummm...  OK  :headscratch:

Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #668 on: December 23, 2009, 08:30:01 PM »
You are completely incorrect on that statement.  That is a total falsehood.  If you have ever learned anything of the earth's history, you would know that dinosaurs and their assorted bretheren walked this earth for millions upon millions of years.

In prehistoric times, there were swamps that eventually were covered with rock.  Intense heat and pressure compressed and rearranged the molecules of these compunds and  changed them into oil and coal.  Tell me how these are not "fossil" fuels.  

So far you have given no evidence to support your points.  If you are to tell me that all of those organic compounds just went away, then you are a complete liar.  All you have done to prove your point is to contradict me.  Here is my proof, from:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crude_Oil

Formation
According to generally accepted theory, petroleum is derived from ancient biomass.[14] The theory was initially based on the isolation of molecules from petroleum that closely resemble known biomolecules (Figure).

 
Structure of vanadium porphyrin compound extracted from petroleum by Alfred Treibs, father of organic geochemistry. Treibs noted the close structural similarity of this molecule and chlorophyll a.
More specifically, crude oil and natural gas are products of heating of ancient organic materials (i.e. kerogen) over geological time. Formation of petroleum occurs from hydrocarbon pyrolysis, in a variety of mostly endothermic reactions at high temperature and/or pressure.[15] Today's oil formed from the preserved remains of prehistoric zooplankton and algae, which had settled to a sea or lake bottom in large quantities under anoxic conditions (the remains of prehistoric terrestrial plants, on the other hand, tended to form coal). Over geological time the organic matter mixed with mud, and was buried under heavy layers of sediment resulting in high levels of heat and pressure (diagenesis). This process caused the organic matter to change, first into a waxy material known as kerogen, which is found in various oil shales around the world, and then with more heat into liquid and gaseous hydrocarbons via a process known as catagenesis.

Geologists often refer to the temperature range in which oil forms as an "oil window"[16]—below the minimum temperature oil remains trapped in the form of kerogen, and above the maximum temperature the oil is converted to natural gas through the process of thermal cracking. Sometimes, oil which is formed at extreme depths may migrate and become trapped at much shallower depths than where it was formed. The Athabasca Oil Sands is one example of this.

And here is my proof that you are wrong: Again same place.

Extensive research into the chemical structure of kerogen has identified algae as the primary source of oil. The abiogenic origin hypothesis fails to explain the presence of these markers in kerogen and oil, as well as failing to explain how inorganic origin could be achieved at temperatures and pressures sufficient to convert kerogen to graphite. It has not been successfully used in uncovering oil deposits by geologists, as the hypothesis lacks any mechanism for determining where the process may occur.

If you don't trust Wikipedia, here are some other sites: http://library.thinkquest.org/J0112442/historyform.html

Oil is a fossil fuel. Millions of years ago, tiny sea creatures and plants died and fell to the bottom of the ocean floor. Layer on top of layer of this organic material collected and decomposed. Year after year, sand and rocks covered the layers until pressure built up.  The high temperature of the rotting material, along with the pressure from the layers of rock and sand that covered it, caused a chemical reaction. Eventually, petroleum was created. Then the ancient seas dried up and oil remained trapped under tons of earth.

This is from http://www.earthsky.org/faqpost/energy/how-do-coal-and-oil-form

Both coal and oil are fossil fuels. That means they’re formed from organic matter – stuff that was alive on Earth millions of years ago – that was covered by heavy layers of rock. Over time, the increased pressures and heat resulting from the overlying rock transformed the decomposed matter to coal or oil.

Both coal and oil are carbon-based fuels – they’re made up mostly of carbon and hydrogen. Coal usually forms from buried tissues of higher plants. Most of Earth’s coal originated as trees, ferns, and other tropical forest plants that lived in a warmer time in our history. That’s why the world’s coal beds are found on land.

Oil mostly originated as very simple organisms – such as bacteria, algae and plankton. This organic matter – and often the sandstone or limestone beds that hold the oil – was deposited in marine or lake basins, and in the ocean. Both oil and coal are non-renewable – once we use up all we have, it’s gone.


Checkmate.  :cool:

-Penguin

wikipedia?   :rofl

i posted these links a couple of pages ago. i know some people that verified this. they actually mentioned it to me, before i found these pages. i told em they were full of crap.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645

http://www.bipolarnation.com/2009/03/18/is-oil-a-renewable-resource/

 the one below has a couple of links in it.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread206133/pg1

http://www.321energy.com/editorials/bainerman/bainerman083105.html

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Oil-Peak-and-the-Renewable-Abiotic-Petroleum-85267.shtml

http://www.americandaily.com/article/22843

read these links with an open mind. forget all the bs you've been taught.

also remember, we were told in 1973 that we were gonna run out of oil back then. i was young, but i remember it. i remember the arab oil embargo too.

 mother earth creates oil.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #669 on: December 23, 2009, 08:31:56 PM »
So.. ... Let me get this conversation straight.

So you say man is responsible for the globe warming, but... ... it's stopped warming !?!

     "Oh, that's cause the sun's at a solar minimum, just wait till it ramps up again and we'll see warming."

But I though man was responsible for warming??

     "We are, it's just stopped cause the sunspot cycle is at it's low."

So the sun is responsible for warming?!?

     "No, we are, just wait till the sun heats up again and you'll see."

So man is responsible, but it's stopped because of the sun, even though we emit more CO2 then ever?

     "Exactly"

Ummm...  OK  :headscratch:

well...no.....the earth is cooling right now. he's saying THAT'S a result of the suns inactivity. i normally respect his posts pretty highly.....but i thinnk he;s fallen for all the bs on this one.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #670 on: December 23, 2009, 10:34:54 PM »
I think you guys need to expand your thinking a tad.  

When you mention fossil fuel use, you're being far to restrictive if you just think that means cars, trucks, planes, electricity, and home heat.

Restricting your use of fossil fuels won't stop with limiting what you drive, or how far.

I work in a small plant that creates food packaging.  Guess what it's made out of?  Petroleum products.  Our small little plant creates enough packaging to stretch a 5' wide "belt" around the globe 13-14 times every year.  Almost everything we create ends up in a land fill after you're done eating.  Sad, ain't it?

Ever had a soda pop from a plastic bottle?  Potato chips from a bag?  Cereal from a bag, or a bag inside of a box?  What type of container do you get your laundry soap in?  What's your computer made of?  Your carpet?  Your shoes?  Not only does your vehicle burn fossil fuels, it's made from them.  Can Moray SCUBA dive without using fossil fuels?  Can his equipment be made without using them?  That's not to point fingers at Moray.  I'm just using it as an example of how dependent we are on fossil fuels.  We have to burn them, just to study the effects of burning them.

Running out of fossil fuels doesn't mean no more driving.  It means radically more than that.  It's difficult to even fathom.  

Just from a food angle, how would your life change without the ability to purchase and easily store food without it spoiling?  Would you have time for much of anything in life besides securing food for a few days at a time?

I'm not saying we're running out of them.  I'm just broadening the discussion...

From a standpoint of one who studied archaeology in college, and who's brother is an archaeologist, I have no doubt that running out of fossil fuels (or the ability to use the ones available) would be the end of civilization as we know it, temporarily at least.  The best we could hope for would be a "seamless" transition to a new fuel source.  And like I mentioned, fuel is just one facet of the problem. 

If the fuel shortage coincided with an agriculture-limiting climate change it'd be really bad (whether it was man-made or not).  Without agriculture, there's no civilization.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 11:24:22 PM by mtnman »
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Offline saggs

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #671 on: December 23, 2009, 11:15:07 PM »
I think you guys need to expand your thinking a tad.  

When you mention fossil fuel use, you're being far to restrictive if you just think that means cars, trucks, planes, electricity, and home heat.

Restricting your use of fossil fuels won't stop with limiting what you drive, or how far.

I work in a small plant that creates food packaging.  Guess what it's made out of?  Petroleum products.  Our small little plant creates enough packaging to stretch a 5' wide "belt around the globe 13-14 times every year.  Almost everything we create ends up in a land fill after you're done eating.  Sad, ain't it?

Ever had a soda pop from a plastic bottle?  Potato chips from a bag?  Cereal from a bag, or a bag inside of a box?  What type of container do you get your laundry soap in?  What's your computer made of?  Your carpet?  Your shoes?  Not only does your vehicle burn fossil fuels, it's made from them.  Can Moray SCUBA dive without using fossil fuels?  Can his equipment be made without using them?  That's not to point fingers at Moray.  I'm just using it as an example of how dependent we are on fossil fuels.  We have to burn them, just to study the effects of burning them.

Running out of fossil fuels doesn't mean no more driving.  It means radically more than that.  It's difficult to even fathom.  

Just from a food angle, how would your life change without the ability to purchase and easily store food without it spoiling?  Would you have time for much of anything in life besides securing food for a few days at a time?

I'm not saying we're running out of them either.  I'm just broadening the discussion...

I agree, I don't think it has anything to so with global warming though.  I once laughed at a protester in San Francisco who was blocking a SUV in the street, holding his bicycle in the air, screaming at the SUV driver.  "I don't need your stinking oil, I don't use oil, stop drilling, I ride bikes" etc.

I just chuckled, what does he think the machines that manufactured that bike run on, or the machines that mined the aluminum for it, or the truck that shipped it to the store, what are the plastic fenders made out of, what does he oil the chain with, what's in the asphalt he rides it on, how does the food he eats get to the store, etc.  EVERYBODY uses oil, even if you haven't driven an inch in your life.

For what it's worth I don't think we will run out of oil -I really mean all fossil fuels and petroleum-, it will just become more and more difficult to reach the oil that is left.  Eventually the market will reach a tipping point when the increasing cost of extracting the remaining oil, will surpass the cost of alternatives.  Even then, some industries will still use oil, I can't see the Airlines for example, ever flying non fossil fuel airplanes. 

Right now the technology exists to replace much of our dependence on oil, and petroleum base products, but oil is still much, much cheaper.  Not until the scarcity of oil, and the increasing difficulty in getting to it, drive the price way, way up, will we see a significant shift away from it's usage.

In short, I think IF we let the free market work, it will work out new solutions.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #672 on: December 24, 2009, 01:02:02 AM »
Now I get it (who said that I was slow to catch on?). The world is doomed due to far too many mutts. So, keep the Hummer, just shoot the damn dog. While we're at it, we should drown the cats too. "Cat poo can be even more toxic than doggy doo -- owners who flush their litter down the toilet ultimately infect sea otters and other animals with toxoplasma gondii, which causes a killer brain disease."

I think there's a brain disease they've overlooked.

I would agree since I dont believe poo in toilet water would be a valid vector.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #673 on: December 24, 2009, 01:07:15 AM »
Penguin I believe oil is created in an enzymatic process but... by your theory please explain how dinosaur guts got so far under the earths crust please?

 :bolt:
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Offline cpxxx

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #674 on: December 24, 2009, 03:18:51 AM »
Last night it was minus 5 degrees centigrade here in my back garden. (Edit: It was minus 7 deg, this morning.) This morning the world is white. It's been frozen for days now. No snow just frost. The last time I saw it this frozen was when I visited Iceland. Everything is frozen white, the grass, the houses, the cars, the powerlines then cobwebs.

So what? You say those of you living in places the get to minus 20.. Well frankly that never happens here on the west coast of Ireland with the Atlantic and the Gulf Stream lapping at our door. I have never seen it before to this extent and I've been around a while. Snow is so rare around here that it generates great excitement. This kind of frost is so rare that many older people I've met have NEVER experienced it before. :old:

So much for global warming.  :banana:

Yes I know it's only weather but if I wasn't skeptical before. This would raise doubts in my mind.


What's it like you you, Angus?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 05:02:29 AM by cpxxx »